Similar to most sports, sticking to fundamentals helps a lot. I occasionally have to remind myself to shoot a game gun like a game gun not a heavy target gun. I am also reminded of watching a shooting demo by an Olympic shooter, John Satterwhite, ( I think it was over 40 years ago). He usually shot an O/U or semi auto but had recently set a course record on a sporting course with a borrowed SxS.
This ain't a dress rehearsal , Don't Let the Old Man IN
Many years ago, I was at the old Beretta club in Maryland, preparing to go out on the sporting clay course, which was recently made ready for use. John Satterwhite was showing me a Model 21 two barrel set that he had just bought. We went out on the course and had a nice shoot. The course, at that time, was a tight little woods course where targets were usually from 15 to 20 yards, and fast. John ran, I think, a 48 or 49 out of fifty. When we got back to his car, I examined his gun and found that he had used the full and full barrels for our round. His patterns couldn't have been larger than 12 or 15 inches wide. He was some shot. One fine day, John told me his normal helper for his "show" was not available. He approached me and asked, "Can you catch a shotgun if I throw it at you from fifteen feet away?" I knew what was coming and replied that I could certainly catch that shotgun. Those of you who have seen his show know what came next. I did the whole show with him including the station eight demonstration where he would shoot a high house, throw the empty gun at me while I threw (or handed) a loaded gun to him and he would shoot a low house, and repeat about ten times, from the hip. His skill on multiple thrown targets was unbelievable. We practiced at my home club in Poolesville, Maryland when he lived in West Virginia.
My takeaway was there's difference between recreational & competition shooting.
We all know what it takes to be a consistent high scoring competition shooter and the featured gun wouldn't cut-it in those circles. Then there's guys like me who simply like shotguns & shooting who have a variety of guns to choose from when we head out to the range. I do have a few guns that I shoot more consistent scores with, but my overall experience has been that my scores usually fall in the same average range no matter what gun I'm shooting, it doesn't matter if it's a modern stack barrel with an adjustable comb, 32" barrels with super-duper extended chokes or one of my vintage SxS's. I subjectively do like my barrel lengths between 28" to 32" but I can shoot decent scores with 26" as well.
Jonny pretty much said the same thing in this video. Car salesmen know there's a butt for every seat and us duffer shooters know we can justify having any length of barrel's if we like the gun & think we got a deal on it. My philosophy is just shoot what ya grab from the safe & enjoy the gun for what it is.
Homer Clark won the 1949 Live Bird World Championship, in Madrid, and again in 1951 in Monte Carlo with his Ithaca Magnum frame NID 5E. The barrels left Ithaca at 30", were then cut, and in 1949 were jug choked and cut again to 25 1/4". https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=582111
Making his last winning kill in Madrid 1949 at 3 minutes
Last Saturday I went the opposite extreme, I shot sporting with my 1897 Joseph Lang hammer pigeon gun. It has 32" sleeved barrels and weighs over 8lbs. Target that were far were easy kills but when it came to the close stuff it was harder to stop those 32's from swinging through.
Never met the guy who shoots a 32” 9 lb. O/U at ruffed grouse. But, the Spanish gun he is using would be pretty useful for that duty. The fact he can make it work on that clays course says far more about him than the Sable. The Spanish gun is more general purpose, which, fits what most weekend warriors use. When I shoot clay sports, it is just to practice for bird hunting, then, it is back to work on Monday.
I didn’t hear how it was choked. I thought he said it had ejectors, but, didn’t see it eject anything. Also, he did say it weighed 7lbs, which, seems about a solid 1/2 lb. over the weigh of comparable guns I’ve handled. That is a half pound more than my 12 gauge Uggy, that has 28” barrels. Seems off.
As a 12 gauge, hard to give away in my neighborhood. A 20 gauge would be easier to sell.
I wasn't referring to grouse, Ted, but clay targets. I was referencing Mike's post above mine which included "I shot sporting with my 1897 Joseph Lang pigeon gun . . . ."
And "Targets that were far were easy kills but when it came to the close stuff it was harder to stop those 32's from swinging through."
No mention by Mike of grouse, but all about clay targets on a sporting course.
I wasn't referring to grouse, Ted, but clay targets. I was referencing Mike's post above mine which included "I shot sporting with my 1897 Joseph Lang pigeon gun . . . ."
And "Targets that were far were easy kills but when it came to the close stuff it was harder to stop those 32's from swinging through."
No mention by Mike of grouse, but all about clay targets on a sporting course.
I was only commenting on the video, Stan. I believe he makes the point that while the 25” gun is more difficult to shoot well at clays, that doesn’t make it impossible.
My thought was he made a passable clays gun out of the Sable. We all know it would be a passable or better bird gun. Don’t know that you could do that with the big O/U with the chokes sticking out the ends of the barrels. Those motorized carts I see at the club, carrying big guns and big old dudes to the next station are there for a reason. The only hunting will be for an adult beverage once the gun is put away.
The whole idea of making a passable anything out of a gun that might be better suited for something else is just alien to me. I try to acquire the best gun for the purpose at hand. I think I have done a pretty good job of that, over time.
I tried hard to make a competitive sporting gun out of my 32" AH Fox A grade. But, it has a straight hand buttstock and that sealed it's doom for me, for competitive clays. I shoot the pistol grip 30" BSS way better. I'll likely be selling that A grade, for that reason.
If Perazzi, Beretta, Krieghoff, et al thought they could make more money selling short barrels, they would give their sponsored guys and gals 28” tubes and some slick marketing and everyone else would fall into line.
Funny thing, back in the 60's most pigeon guns had 28" tubes. Some that came from Europe had 27" barrels. Now it seems since the trend of longer and longer barrels has come to fashion no one wants to remember when the shorter barrels did just fine.
Funny thing, back in the 60's most pigeon guns had 28" tubes. Some that came from Europe had 27" barrels. Now it seems since the trend of longer and longer barrels has come to fashion no one wants to remember when the shorter barrels did just fine.
Can you prove that first statement? I have a copy of Cyril Adams's excellent book, Live Pigeon Trap Shooting which I read a few years ago. Before I dig it out and reread the chapter on guns I'd like to hear why you think that.
I'd also really like to hear what Paul Melton would have to say about that. He is the most prolific pigeon shooter I am aware of, and has been successful at it for a long time.
Am I supposed to understand that you are basing your opinion that pigeon guns in the 60s were predominantly 28" barreled on that one advertisement, or on what you see advertised for sale?
No historical evidence to support that? Only advertising?
I shoot pigeons and Helice with three guns, a 1906 Purdey with 30" barrels, a 1911 Purdey hammer gun with 30" barrels and a Perazzi SC3 with 31" barrels. I have seen plenty of pigeon guns with shorter barrels.
There’s no hard and fast rule on barrel length, but it does seem the Europeans made a lot of shorter barreled guns. Look at the Beretta S3s from the 60s and 70s. Not much over 28” and that would be 30”. Buddy of mine has a Fabbri with 29” barrels. Hard to find one with 32s. Based on my limited observations it seems shorter barrels were the prevailing fashion 40-60 years ago just like longer barrels (32”-34”) are prevalent today. Personally I believe shooters are missing some great guns because short barrels are out of fashion. And Cyril Adam is pretty much silent on this topic in his book, although his 34” hammergun figures prominently as a modern example. Perhaps Doc Drew will chime in here. He probably has the data.
Thanks, I was just saying seems like many years ago shorter barrels were the norm. Especially the European ones. I have seen Purdey pigeon guns listed with 28" barrels. Barrel length is just a myth. Didn't Robert Churchill show up at a pigeon shoot with a 25" gun because it had been damaged and had to be cut off.
I shoot pigeons and Helice with three guns, a 1906 Purdey with 30" barrels, a 1911 Purdey hammer gun with 30" barrels and a Perazzi SC3 with 31" barrels. I have seen plenty of pigeon guns with shorter barrels.
But, what historical evidence do you have that '60s pigeon guns had 28" barrels, predominantly?
Thanks, I was just saying seems like many years ago shorter barrels were the norm. Especially the European ones. I have seen Purdey pigeon guns listed with 28" barrels. Barrel length is just a myth. Didn't Robert Churchill show up at a pigeon shoot with a 25" gun because it had been damaged and had to be cut off.
Showing up means nothing. We are all entitled to mistakes.
Show me where 25-26" guns dominated pigeon shoots. Then, I will listen..
Many of the guns being discussed were made before sporting clays had become popular or brought to the U.S. They are guns that can obviously be shot at sporting clays but were not designed specifically for sporting clays. FWIW: A Beretta catalog from the early 90's (a few years after sporting clays was introduced in the States) lists their dedicated Sporting models (A390 through SO5) as being available in either 28" or 30" barrels. I recall Digweed tried 34" barrels for a while before settling back to 32's. Olympic skeet remains the domain of 28" and 30" barrels. The point is not whether Brandon Powell can outshoot me using a clapped-out 26" Browning BSS: I'm betting he can. The point is whether he could shoot the same gun to beat Anthony Matarese et al. Probably not...
Many of the guns being discussed were made before sporting clays had become popular or brought to the U.S. They are guns that can obviously be shot at sporting clays but were not designed specifically for sporting clays. FWIW: A Beretta catalog from the early 90's (a few years after sporting clays was introduced in the States) lists their dedicated Sporting models (A390 through SO5) as being available in either 28" or 30" barrels. I recall Digweed tried 34" barrels for a while before settling back to 32's. Olympic skeet remains the domain of 28" and 30" barrels. The point is not whether Brandon Powell can outshoot me using a clapped-out 26" Browning BSS: I'm betting he can. The point is whether he could shoot the same gun to beat Anthony Matarese et al. Probably not...
The Browning BSS and the Spanish gun could, however, lead to a good day in the grouse woods, for Brandon, Anthony, yourself, or, little old me.
I began shooting sporting clays with a 26" barreled BSS, and did well. However, there were no highly technical targets thrown in sporting in those days. You seldom saw a target over 25 yards, 30 tops. No problem for a well balanced 26" gun for close stuff like that.
I see few courses set that way today. My home range, Bay Gall Sporting, has two courses, Red and Blue. Even the Blue course is exceedingly tougher and longer than the old days.
Point is, a 26" gun will be hard pressed to do well ( scoring in the 90s) on a course with lots of long stuff. But, a well balanced 32" gun can excel at both soft, close stuff and long, technical stuff.
Ever seen a 26" barreled double (S X S or O/U) doing well on a Make-A-Break, or at FITASC? I haven't.
Show up at a FITASC tournament pretty much anywhere here in the Midwest, with a 25 inch barreled shotgun, and by about the second cartridge. You’ll wish that you hadn’t.
Now that presumes, that because you paid an entry fee, you care about hitting the targets, and you want to hit all of them.
Walking some woodland trail, or working ones way through an alder run, a short barrel shotgun would certainly hang up less. Would probably be lighter in most cases as well.
To win a FITASC tournament, you have to shoot 90% plus
To have gross for dinner most gunners shoot 20% or less on the flush.
Of 10 flushes, you will see clear enough to shoot four of them.
Of the four that you shoot at, a good shot will knock down two, but typically only one or none.
There’s an organization. I can’t say if it’s around anymore or not as it was paper-based, call The LODGH, the loyal order of dedicated, grouse hunters, and their historical information was very accurate.
People self reported, the newsletter, operator, collated, and analyzed the data, and then published results.
It had quite a following for the first 25 years I was shooting at grouse.
A person can argue about effectiveness pre-and post leaf drop, but taking grouse on the flush (as opposed to shooting them on the ground) takes a bit of doing.
In a big year, you could flush 150+ by Oct1, and see only 30% or less. I’m not a big fan of shooting young of the year, which are often times hardly larger than robins. By October 1, they’ve grown a considerable amount and present a much more favorable target. No hopping up into trees for instance.
A person must be tolerant of other people using whatever legal means there are for shooting them.
That means road hunting, mechanical aids, skirmish line hunting and semi automatics.
You can extirpate grouse from a wood lot with a coordinated effort. And then post your pictures on the Internet to show your grouse killing promise.
In the past, I think I posted pictures of grouse broods drinking from puddles in the heat of September that I chose not to shoot at.
Late 1980s and into the 1990s I logged grouse taken, and shots fired. I hovered on either side of 50%, most years. I didn’t shoot grouse on the ground, as, the dog was there, and the simple truth was he was so good at the game I believe my ratio would have been half of what it was, without him. He retrieved birds that I hadn’t realized I had hit, many, many times. When he was young, grouse occasionally flew into a tree, and he would stand under the tree and bark at them, but, I never killed any of those birds either, because I wanted to break that habit. He grew out of it, 3-4 years in. He got old, and another setter came into my life. She was an outstanding pheasant dog, as was dog number one, but, literally never figured out the first thing about grouse. She came along with, bumbled a bit, did retrieve the grouse I shot with or without her assistance, and, lo and behold, I got a grouse about every third or fourth shot. We concentrated on pheasants, as grouse went into a low part of the cycle right in the middle of her life, and, roosters were much easier to find. I can’t even tell you where I am now. That is mostly due to trying to learn to shoot right handed, after 50 years of doing it left handed, I miss a lot of birds these days it seems. Current dog is just happy to be there, a good thing, first dog would have given me a lot of bad looks. The guns back in the day were either a Darne 20 gauge with 29” barrels, choked modified and full, and a Remington model 17 with 21” barrel and an improved cylinder Stan Baker choke installed, most days. The guns could not have been more different, but, it didn’t seem to matter at the time. I think what I shoot now is more critical to success than it used to be. The gun I shoot the best is an All Weather Remington 1100 20 gauge, but, using it to hunt birds leaves me a bit cold. A lot cold, actually.
I can’t help that. Life would be a bit simpler if I could.
My reaction time is slower, my hearing is worse, and, I’m more apt to call it a day if my feet hurt, the weather changes for the worse, or I’m not seeing enough birds to stay interested. I haven’t shot a limit in a long, long time, and likely wouldn’t if I had the opportunity. A brace is enough if eating birds is mostly my responsibility.
The definition of success changed a little, along the way. It’s OK.
To have gross for dinner most gunners shoot 20% or less on the flush.
Very interesting, CZ. Having never hunted them I had no idea that the average was that low (assuming "gross" meant grouse).
At first, I thought that ClapperZapper may have been referring to eating Ortolan.
But that 20% or less success figure for flushed ruffed grouse sounds to be a fairly reasonable average. I understand that some grouse species are not nearly as wary or challenging to shoot, but ruffed grouse are unpredictable with a good dog, and even more unpredictable without a dog. If you are a shooter who needs to establish a smooth swing or sustained lead, then that 20% figure will be wishful thinking in a lot of grouse cover. They seem to have a knack for holding tight until you are the most unprepared to shoot, such as when you are fighting through very thick stuff, or out of balance while stepping over rocks, vines, or fallen tree limbs. They also have a very noisy flush for their size. What I find most remarkable is how they seem to know when you can legally shoot them, and when you can't. During grouse season, their flight always seems to be very quick and evasive, and you often lose sight of the target even when most of the Fall leaves are down. You very rarely have much time to shoot before you lose sight of them entirely. A double shotgun is perfect for them because there won't be many times you could get a clear third shot, if you missed the first two shots. Getting a double is a real accomplishment. Often, you hear the flush, and never see them. But then, a few weeks later during deer season, they will often launch straight away from a logging road or open area. Many times, I've pulled up on one flying gently straight away while carrying my flintlock rifle during deer season, and swear I could easily hit it in flight with an open sighted rifle. Visibility in the late season, if we have one, is often better due to a snow covered background.
I mostly hunted ringneck pheasants until they became near extinct in my state. Pheasants are way easier than ruffed grouse.
Voting for anti-gun Democrats is dumber than giving treats to a dog that shits on a Persian Rug
A person can make ruffed grouse shooting as easy or as hard as they want. I’m in it for the sport, so I have artificially imposed rules I follow. My percentages are per cartridge, not per flush. No question that the Benelli ultralight is used to great effect across their range. Just as previously the model 59.
The pot pot pot of a one lung ATV draws young male, ruffed grouse, right out to the road wanting to fight.
They think somebody is interloping on their territory.
Everyone had different experiences, mine are generally hunting in the woods with a few years hunting open fields in Germany. My all-time favorite barrels are A 60cm long, open bored set I had Heym make for my O/U mod 44N to shoot Alabama woods Bobwhite with. After shooting the whole ribcage from a hare and shooting a pheasant from between its wings, with the half and full choke "field" barrels of the same gun, I switched to the 60 cm barrels (with 1 1/4 oz #2, in Germany and 1 1/8 oz #8 or 7 1/2 in the US) for everything I hunted with a shotgun. I never looked back. I expect arguments. Mike
Everyone had different experiences, mine are generally hunting in the woods with a few years hunting open fields in Germany. My all-time favorite barrels are A 60cm long, open bored set I had Heym make for my O/U mod 44N to shoot Alabama woods Bobwhite with. After shooting the whole ribcage from a hare and shooting a pheasant from between its wings, with the half and full choke "field" barrels of the same gun, I switched to the 60 cm barrels (with 1 1/4 oz #2, in Germany and 1 1/8 oz #8 or 7 1/2 in the US) for everything I hunted with a shotgun. I never looked back. I expect arguments. Mike
I think people assume any choke combination will work for them, but, it often is a different story when it comes to use in the field. Conditions change from early season to late, the birds that live wise up, the weather can be a factor, etc.
I’ve never had great results with full choke. The longest shot I ever made happened with a modified choke on a pheasant that had full engagement of the afterburners, after my partner missed twice. Nobody save the bird was more surprised than I when he fell into a very large pond after that shot. The most memorable part of that event was my old English Setter, who hadn’t seen the bird, being pointed out into the slew with the command “fetch my bird” and ambling off in the direction I pointed, and returning soaked, and muddy, tail gently wagging, with the bird in her maw and a hundred cockleburrs in her coat, tail and ears. A lab wouldn’t have been as much of a mess as she was, but, no lab ever made a more spectacular blind retrieve.
It took me longer to comb her out than it took to retrieve that rooster.
ClapperZapper, did I have fun? You bet I did and I would give anything to be able to do it again. I especially remember one morning's hunt when there was snow on the ground. It was mostly ploughed fields with a couple woods plots, where I was assigned to "back up" the line through the woods and take any hare trying to escape that way. That year there were enough pheasants that hens were on the abschuss plan (shooting plan) and I took 17 hares and 5 pheasants. That was really memorable day, for me a good day would have been 5 hares and 2 or 3 pheasants. Maybe the best part was I was a stranger in a foreign land, and they treated me like I was a brother. Was I respectful of the game after I shot it? Yes. In Germany, the game belonged to the owner of the hunting rights and except for what he kept or gave to the hunters, he sold to help defray the cost of his lease and other costs. That is how the general population of the area was able to enjoy the delicious game dishes served in the Gasthauses. As for the game I shot in the US, we enjoyed it at home or in the hunting camp. Even though I can only hunt now, siting in a ground blind, I have happy memories and can still take a deer every once in a while. This year, at 81 years old, I was able to take a nice buck and give most of the meat to my grandson (who was unsuccessful). Although they won't remember it, it really makes me happy to know my first two great grandsons' first taste of venison will come from a deer I shot (not to mention passing my guns on to them and hopefully their cousins). It was sure better than spending my time in beer joints and pool halls. Mike
This has been debated for years and will continue to be talked about . Robert Churchill promoted his 25 " barrels but in the last thirty years barrels upto 32" have been promoted. I think we can all adjust to shooting any length of barrel , because many of us cannot afford to change on a whim . King George has tried 34" but didn't like them and settled on 32". John Bidwell became Sporting & Fitasc World champion with 28" barreled Browning before moving to 30". So I think we can all have success with whatever we choose and practice with.
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