doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Bradler and Lachmann Graz-Borovlje-Biks-6.5X70R-16

Was fortunate to acquire a Borovlje - Biks in 6.5X70R - 16 Bore w/ ejectors and it is given that the retailer in Graz, Österreich was Bradler and Lachmann. The Platform was actually made in 1911 & in 1923/1924 during the 6,5X70R Alpine Round( >>„Bleistiftpatrone = pencil cartridge“ 6.5x70R was designed in Suhl about 1911<<) craze of the 1920s & 1930s orchestrated by Franz Sodia, an additional tubeset was added and apparently the original tubeset was lost to the ravages of time.

The Cape retailed by Bradler und Lachmann in Graz, Österreich is slated to arrive this week hopefully, if it isn't Duck-Taped to a Bumper @ the Post Office.



Interesting slot in the Doll's Head to mate with the tab in the Doll's Head Well in the Standing Breech

For a Biks w/ ejectors, are the extractor faces correct?




1911 & 1924 Proof Efforts


Square Crossbolt lockup


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ejector faces are correct and fit well, so the edges were designed that way.


>>SAFE<< so the Biks/Cape was destined for a English speaking client



Square Crossbolt & unique tab that mate with the Dolls' Head Extension


Too, the scope mount feet are held rigidly and I assume stuck? Also, I assume the whole lot moves forward off the bases in the top rib.......

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Likewise, anyone have any idea how much one click on the dial changes the elevation?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Interesting feet & bases where the rotation of the lever(encircled in blue) mates with the semicircle(encircled in orange) to the bases. It looks to be a Krieghoff style mount. I do not believe the feet & bases have been divorced since before WWII. The scope & feet slide forward and the only way I could convince them to move was with a wooden dowel. Just tap a wooden dowel with a hammer centred on the rear foot and the whole lot moves towards the muzzle.



And the reverse install will require that the semi circle be directly in the semicircle divot

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I guess a bona fide Austrian Jäger carried a hammer & wooden dowel in his kit(by probably not a Sunday Hunter, Lad or Lady??) to install & remove his scope. There's really not an easy way to re-install with a little coercion from a wooden dowel & hammer to get the lever to mate with the bases.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Tubeset weight for the „Bleistiftpatrone = pencil cartridge“ 6.5x70R is stamped >>1700g<< grammes and on my Trusty Dusty Kat Certified Kitchen Scales the tubeset w/ bases weighs 1726 grammes.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Forgot to post a full length. New thick pad installed pushing the LOP to 14". Tubeset with ejectors has a length of 68 cm. Anson & Deeley Body Action fitted w/ signal pins atop with right sidemount Kahles scope. Total weight without scope is 7lbs 4 oz, I think?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

There were a few cracked cases(„Bleistiftpatrone = pencil cartridge“ 6.5x70R) in ammo & brass that came with a similar drilling. So I am about to start on the ammo component effort.

I do wonder what the tab(encircled in pink) is on the floorplate?




Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to note that this Sunday Hunter, Lad or Lady Sunday Hunter or just Lad or Lady Hunter platform has a quite short LOP but when the somewhat thick pad replaced an old worn out one, the LOP is actually quite close to nice.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I haven't responded until now but have been watching the post. I don't understand how you keep finding these wonderful and interesting toys. I believe the scope was "stuck" because it was closely fit up and as you indicated hadn't been removed since before Custer was on the E4 list. A little oil and removing/reinstalling it a couple times should free it up. You shouldn't need the dowel, but it's good that it is closely fit. Axel wrote a piece about adjusting these old scopes and I recommend reading it. As I recall, adjusting the elevation (if it isn't stuck) is a matter of trial and error. Adjusting the windage seems to be by drifting the front base in the dovetail, note the witness mark and stake marks on the dovetail. I suggest leaving the adjustments "as is" until handloading efforts show you have to change them. I find the original sighting to be the best indication of the load the rifle likes. Brass is going to be hard to find, it is the one caliber I don't have an acceptable donor case for. I think the best bet is to look for 6x70R cases, intended for the einstecklauf (also an interesting cartridge). This is a relatively recent cartridge and may be the best bet. The split case you showed looks like it may have been fired with a mercuric primer and handloaded. This shouldn't be a possibility with 6x70R cases. Bullets may also be a problem, the "book" indicates it needs a .260-.261" bullet like my 6.5x48R and 6.5x58R, but you should slug the barrel to be sure. You may be lucky enough that the Austrian barrel wants a .264" bullet, but if not, I am set up to resize them from .264 to .261". The original bullet was a heavy for caliber round nose bullet and modern bullets of this weight will likely be spitzer form and too long for the rifling twist. I am using 90 grain varmint and 95 grain game bullets, but am still working out the loads.
Have fun,
Mike

Since the current tubeset is the 2nd and the „Bleistiftpatrone = pencil cartridge“ 6.5x70R was the chambering of choice, the forend is slightly one sided & you can easily tell when you mount it & swing as if feels a little awkward.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Ford and yes Toys, indeed. I just keep my eyes out w/ specific search terms. I believe the bore will be like the drilling & be near 0.267". But you can bet your bottom $ that if an Austrian tube(pre-WWII) is stamped >>6.8<< the chambering will be the Bleistiftpatrone 6.5x70R. My hope is to find some 6X70R parent cases but for now I am headed toward annealing.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

And Ford I just may stop by & compare notes.....


Too, exactly a week ago in Bankhead National Forest whilst crossing a stream I had a sling swivel separate from the tube. I figured you could put it back together with a Pall Mall or Chesterfield cigarette and some soft solder?



Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I have experienced new cases splitting like that. The cases were made both Bertram and Buffalo Arms. I believe that the cases were not annealed. Since then, Ihave started full length anneaing cases (keeping the heads in 3/8" water) and the issue seems to be resolved.

I had a sling eye separate and the fix was easy. Clean &flux both leaded surfaces, wire the eye in place, and heat the eye.

Yeah, Buffalo Arms peddles Bertram and Bertram sticks in this case are in the rough and need finishing..... Annealing is paramount as these sticks are 5€ a piece.


Great info on the sling eye. Did you use Pall Mall or Chesterfield to heat the eye?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The slot in the Doll's Head Extension mates w/ the tab in the Doll's Head Well and offsets the force when the 6,5X70R Bleistiftpatrone ignites.



Ah, same post twice.....

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The slot in the Doll's Head Extension mates w/ the tab in the Doll's Head Well and offsets the force when the 6,5X70R Bleistiftpatrone ignites.





Bushed & Disk Set Strikers.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The spent, split brass sticks were Hell to resize, but the ejectors work flawlessly and the gun has to have been a Sunday Hunter as there is very little use or abuse.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

From the state of the barrel wedges, I would say there was some languishing, wailing & gnashing of teeth in getting this platform sighted in??????

Too, is not the rifle tube crowned?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Ford:

Where might I find that scope artikel by ole pedantic Axel E??? As for the dowel, it will have to accompany me for a time due to the very tight fit.

I am on to annealing & will take any and all advice.


Lep Pozdrav

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Search on the GGCA forum and I think you will find it. As for annealing, I just hold the head/rim in my fingers and twirl the case in the flame (with the torch standing on a table or the floor) and drop it in a coffee can half- full of water. You can't hold it long enough in bare fingers to soften the head. Other people criticize my antique method and insist on buying some motorized device to do it. BTY if the barrel is marked 6.8mm bore diameter, I agree that it should take larger than .261" bullets, but you should "slug" it anyway.
Mike

Raimey,
My first Ferlacher half a century ago was a 1917 vintage Cape/Biks, and I've seen my share of variations over the last 50 plus years. But this lovely find of yours is quite special in many ways indeed.

Lep pozdrav,
Jani

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=626222#Post626222

Lovely to see you post Jani. I noticed your last comments on the BBS were in late February and I started to know on your door to see if you were home?

Do you have a couple cases of 6,5X70R laying about the house?


Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

I'm afraid I have no such cases in my humble adobe, Raimey. Never had a piece chambered for the pencil round.

Cheers,
Jani

Here is a 6x70 loaded cartridge on German egun site as a deko item ie not with powder or primer. 7.90€

https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=20362549

Nice find. Wish there were a Baker's Dozen....

Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

You can find them cheaper loaded without too much of an effort here.

Many Thanks to Mr. Neuberger for a lovely catalogue find:





I have seen the 6,6X70R(„Randpatrone“) designation a couple time so evidently the Austrian „Bleistiftpatrone = pencil cartridge“ variant that Sodia pushed was know as the 6,6X70R??


Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

From the info above, considering the 6,6X70R(„Randpatrone“) „Bleistiftpatrone = pencil cartridge“, is that the velocity of all the listed cartridges approaches 590 m/s.

Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

Looks like even an Austrian converted a Purdey from the Little British Isles tried to capitalize on the 6.5X70R craze from the early 1900s¿

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...e-barrel-rook-rifle.cfm?gun_id=103596018

I for one would like to know the original Rook chambering¿


Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...?gun_id=103563173#gallery-103563173-lg-1

Fantastic German dreiling in 20(65mm)X20(65mm)-6,5X70R

Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

Let us look carefully, and let's take into consideration:
- nice but practical useless rifle cartridge, extreme hassle to reload,
- cracked and glued buttstock, on both sides,
- oil damage at stock-system joints, still visible in spite of good repairs,
- re-cut checkering is clean, but sticks out like sore thumb, does not synch in style at all, icky,
- the ribs and the soldering work give me the creeps; I will count the shots until they are loose; you know how much work and $$$ it is to re-joint these lege artis?

In summa, the gun might bring 600 to 1000 €uros, if in top condition (nobody wants Drillinge in Germany anymore, the gun is thoroughly impractical for everyday hunting, and the few remaining collectors die out fast).
In *this* condition however, about 250 to 500, and 500 would be a happy price for the seller.

For the US market though, P.T. Barnum's dictum still applies. Hah.

Carcano

Now, I didn't say it was a good deal or value.

I agree there are some cracks in the head of the stock; glued I don't think. But the cracks are probably from a healthy diet of 70mm 20 bore cartridges?

Interesting that the bore diameter of 6,? has been over stamped to a 6,5 & then a 70 added below, probably in a reproof effort.


Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

Too, I think your assessment of the much maligned Alpine Cartridge just may be ill placed. It apparently has intrinsic value founded in the sleek & svelte design of the currently, again, much maligned Dreiling Platform as well as performance? For the cartridge to be pressed into service in the early years of the 20th Century, it had to be something more than just a fad. The Jury is still out on that for now.

Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

On the other hand, everyone and his dad have 3 "machine made" .243s, where is the fun in that. Once you have a suitable supply of cases, it is no harder to load 6.5x70R, than any other cartridge, it is easy to make .261" bullets from .264" spitzers.
Mike

Fine Fact there Ford and no soul, absolutely no soul or blood, sweat & toil in those Lifeless wands.

I was hoping you would show. I still have annealing on my to-do list and then on to shooting......



Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

I may come down your way or just call you to get the dope on „hand annealing“ a handful of cases.


Lep Pozdrav,
Raimey
rse

Raimey,
If you have the cases yet, also check the rims for diameter and thickness to be sure they chamber in your gun. You can call or come most any time.
Mike

Thanks Ford for you as typical kind Hospitality.

Yes, they chamber easily. Too, I have a handful of spent RWS Berdan primed sticks of brass & I can't seem to find my handy-dandy RCBS Berdan decapper as I have hidden it from myself. I think I have some Berdan Primers stuck back, but is it better to just convert the RWS Berdan cases or just use Berdan primers, if I can find them? I have a lot of spent 22 Shorts I could insert into the Primer Pocket and then just trim them off.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimsey,
Thanks for posting, That is an interesting drilling but well "over vaued" by the seller which should eliminate a sale. I agree with Mike that the 6.5x70r isn't hard to reload. It is in the class of the 25/35 (6.5x52r) which I have used for deer hunting. Unlike most German guns that are choked F & XF, this has a more usable choke for the quail. On the downside, it has the Triebel scope mount which hasn't been made since WW2.