doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com No markings on the top rib early LCS

I bought (and sometimes I wonder why) a project LCS. Ser#is 34,7xx.
12ga non ejector, I think it's a Quality1,,a small bit of engraving on the side lock plates and here and there on the action and TG.
The L.C. Smith marking on the lock plates is hand engraved.
I think about 1891 for a mfg'r date as best I can determine.
The frame is contoured on the bottom with the concave portions running lengthwise at the edges.
2 piece top tang. 3 position safety.
Near perfect bores. I was weak and bought it even with a slice of wood broken out under the LH lock and up against the trigger tang.
I though for $150, it can set in the corner with the other stuff and not cause too much worrying about it.


**** Question is,,There are no markings on the bbls at all other than the matchng ser# in the same font that the frame and FE show.
No Hunter Arms, Fulton NY,,no nothing.
A small '2' on the FE lug extension, Plus what are likely the bbl source makers marks on each tube up close to the bbl flats.
Top rib is very finely matted. Examination shows no area that was removed where the marking would have been. Nothing on the tubes thmselves.

Is this common? One that got thru so to speak. I read that the bbls should be marked and that would make sense.
But nothing there!

I'll try pics if Mr 1990's camera will actually work.

I'm not a collector, I work on them alot. But the very fine points of markings, styles, changes , ect make my teeth bleed when trying to assemble all that info inside my
deteriorating brain mass,

Thanks for any help.

If you can’t get your photos up, email them to me, and I will.

tedjs@usfamily.net


Best,
Ted

Kutter: I've been down this road a bit and can likely help you with this one.

1891 was the 2nd year of production at Fulton and the 2nd year of production of the Quality 1 gun. Your gun is considered a "transitional gun", meaning that the parts were mostly from Syracuse, NY, but changes were already underway to streamline production in to what the LCSmith gun was to become under the Hunter Brothers. Your tubes will have no marking because of this transitional period (which runs thru 1892-93). There are a number of differences between these transitional guns and what followed after, so-much-so they were counted-in with the production from Syracuse in Houchin's book.

All the stocks were English walnut (even in the lowest grades) there are two screws in the lower tang, all the screw heads are rounded, not flattened as in the post '93 guns. Your gun should also have the "double-dog" butt plate (only used during the transitional years), it should have the earlier stop-check (which allow for a wider gape upon opening). My '91 gun has English Laminated Steel barrels (as yours might as well). Your gun should also have the "Big Window" 3-position safety and still has "boulsters" on the bottom of the frame that are reminiscent of the earlier Syracuse guns, what else...

1891 is about right, and as such it would be a 'transition gun'.

"Wyoming County Times", November 28, 1889
Syracuse, Nov. 20 – Lyman C. Smith has sold a controlling in the L.C. Smith gun works, of this city, manufacturers of hammerless guns, to John Hunter and his five sons, and Harry Comstock of Fulton, and the works will be moved to Fulton immediately. The new firm will be known as the Hunter & Comstock Arms company and will have the largest gun manufacturing plant in the United States.

"Sandy Creek News", January 2, 1890
The Hunter & Comstock Arms company of Fulton, will hereafter be known as the Hunter Arms Company, the Hunters having bought Comstock’s interest. Comstock retains his rights in all patents taken out by him. The Hunters will make the L.C. Smith gun at their factory.

"Syracuse style" unfinished guns and parts were then shipped to the new factory in Fulton for completion, and were available until about 1892.
These "transition guns" have the large convex ribs on the bottom of the receiver, squared lug (images courtesy of David Williamson)



and a wider forend with a duck bill and vase shaped ebony tip



They usually had no markings on the top of the barrels



and might have Syracuse or Fulton engraving patterns



The Hunter Arms Co. Makers, Fulton, N.Y. Quality No. 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 grades were continuations of the L.C. Smith Maker Syracuse guns, and they were first sold in 1890. The A2, A1, and Monogram were first offered in 1892; the Pigeon in 1893; and the A3 and Quality No. 0 in 1895.

I see that Dr. Drew has filled-in the rest of it, thank you Dr. Drew. I also have a Quality 2 gun from 1890 that looks exactly like a Syracuse gun, except for the shape of the breech balls, which are slightly angled (not the full hemispheres of the earlier guns). It also has the square barrel lug and the bigger bolsters of the original Syracuse guns.

With the engraving you're describing, your gun may be a Quality 2. My Quality 1 only has perimeter line engraving on its lockplates and a Starburst on the hinge pin. If it has damascus tubes it very likely is a Quality 2 gun. Also, the "2" near the barrel lug almost guarantees that.

Does it have the metallic "escutcheon" on the forend?

Thank you all for the information. and for Ted, thank you for the offer to post any pics.

I got a few taken and onto the imgbb.
For some reason the other batch won't transfer. I'll keep trying.

Here's a few that decided to show.








Rounded front edge of the bbl lug.
Oval headed screws on TG (2 screws) and the lock plate screw.
Engraving pic that didn't want to play shows a Qual 2 pattern.

The FE has the vase shaped tip inlay. The center of the checkering pattern is an empty round cutout.
Nice quality wood IMO. Should really perk up with a cleaning. Repairs needed to the FE and the butt stock.
Checkering was recut at one time and not the best skill involved. But more than retrievable.
3 position Safety with a large window cut out, Stop check in the bbl lug.

Butt plate is hard rubber but just a plain plate with horizontal grooves in the mid section. No mfg'rs logo or anything like that.

Mechanically it is tight and works just fine. I will disassemble and at least clean and lube. Fix the wood of course. It has a loose FE lug extension underneath, but that's no problem either to fix.
It'll make a nice Skeet gun with what probably are very tight chokes.
It's the first LSC I have personally owned since I was 14y/o. Just the sunshine side of 80 now.
At that time my Father bought a OO Grade (?) for $25 from the local PD Chief.
With the provided ammo of Peters HV 2 3/4" magnum #4's or 6's (The necessary ammo according to my Father for any small game hunting), it was not a pleasant gun to shoot at all.

When I worked for MArlin, Col Brophy looked up the mfg yr for me,,1902 IIRC. He was interested in any LCS that came in for repair or otherwise. Mine was an otherwise.
Right about that time Brophy convinced the front office to NOT accept any vintage LCS for repair or refinishing. Which they agreed to.
The word sent back with the returned LCS to the customer was that no parts were available.
We had large shipping containers full of any part you could imagine in the 'loft' right above the Repair Dept. All carefully packed and labeled. Brought to North HAven from the old plant in New HAven

Marlin was just a couple yrs into the mfg'r of their 'new LCS- at the time.
That was a treat watching them glue the ribs on and then use the same cheap epoxy they had mixed up for that to then turn around and 'glass bed' the action into the wood.

That is a 2-bar Damascus Quality 2 gun for sure. Chokes are just as likely to be modified (both of my transitional guns are so equipted).

A Syracuse Elsie was a master/apprentice produced firearm. Total production was very small (less than 2000 guns, maybe much less) when compared to what flowed out of Fulton (nearly half a million, counting all the variants). All the "transitional" guns reflect that reality to a large degree, which is likely why Houchin's book counts them in with Syracuse production. They remain faithful to Alexander T. Browns original design.

After the Hunter Brother's were done with them (especially after the 1913 re-design) they were fully-streamlined for "mass production" and were a very different prospect indeed.

Much like Kutter, my very 1st double shotgun was an early Field Grade gun that had been my paternal grandfather's first "purchased" firearm. Love 'em or hate 'em, they made (slightly) better doubles available to the masses and put lots of meat into family pots all over this country and... many of them continue to do so to this day.

Very interesting.
Lloyd is correct regarding the crolle pattern - 2 Iron "Oxford". I tried to enhance the pic of the flats but it is very small size



But the pattern appears to be “Belgian-Damascus Finish” - a décalcomanie pattern stained on (usually Decarbonized) Steel barrels
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Yn-0vx1pk19eHwzrfVTEdWz-dlL4VmbBLoH53uqGkFE/edit?tab=t.0

The scrolls are too squarish and seems to repeat themselves, as do the 'stars'



Can you ID the marks at the breech ends? It looks like it might be the Birmingham Provisional proof mark?
No. 1 guns of that era typically had laminated steel barrels, often with the Birmingham mark
No. 2 "Good Damascus" - 2 Iron and we've seen a very few with a Birmingham mark

This is an 1893 Smith A1



BUT Faux Damascus was not used by Birmingham tube makers AFAIK
NO U.S. maker is known to have used Faux Damascus despite the gun show claims.
IF Faux Damascus the barrels would have been a later replacement, and not by Hunter Arms.

If you refinish the barrels please post a full size high resolution image of about 8" of tube where the contrast is most apparent.

I'm probably wrong, but it's fun to speculate.

The missing FE insert is the bakelite dog's head which was standard on pre-1913 No. 2 and up non-ejector guns. I don't know how early they were first used however.
https://gungrip.com/lc-smith-dog-head-forend-insert.aspx