just took possession of a 6 gauge muzzle loading hammer gun...32" twist barrels...no makers name...stamps on barrel flats are V5 and D...Faint Leige Mark remains at each breech...
very English looking architecture...say circa 1895...
bores measure .890 at muzzles...
surprisingly good, complete condition with no repairs...
how rare is a 6 bore doublegon in good shooting condition?
I've personally seen exactly two 6 gauge guns Ed. They were part of a display of large bore single shot and double barrel guns that I saw at a Pennsylvania Gun Collectors Assn. gun show in the early 1990's when that was a very large show.
They were both double barrel hammerguns, and think one was a breechloader. I don't recall any other details. It appears 6 ga. guns in any condition are now quite scarce. I hope we'll get to see a photo of your gun.
Voting for anti-gun Democrats is dumber than giving treats to a dog that shits on a Persian Rug
I would concur with GMCS with a statement that he likely underestimated a cartridge gun and was extremely generous about the muzzleloader! I’ve seen 2x 36 inch barreled eight gauge muzzleloaders sell in about the $600 range. One was marked W Richards the other may not have been marked. In such a gun I’m not sure the six gauge commands more than double the premium.
soon as I settle on a price, pitchers and detailed description will appear on the for sale forum...
how does ten grand sound?
That's a tough question Ed, because we haven't seen the gun, and there are virtually no comparable sales to check for a starting point.
Just guessing here, but I'd say 10 grand is probably too much. 6 gauge guns are very scarce, but there isn't much demand for them either. We used to hear the term JABC all the time, even though some very high quality guns came out of Belgium. But the flood of cheap Belgian guns gave the high quality stuff an undeserved reputation.
I'd probably start with a healthy hidden reserve, and see where things go in an open auction. All it takes is two well heeled bidders who desire the same gun to set the price.Then you can adjust the price accordingly. Or you could be one of those sellers who keeps relisting at an unrealistic price for years, and then complains that guns aren't selling anymore.
You seem to keep your inventory moving. And at least you aren't one of those cheapskates who constantly advertise here, but move heaven and earth to avoid paying Dave the $12.00 fee for selling things here.
Voting for anti-gun Democrats is dumber than giving treats to a dog that shits on a Persian Rug
I think you have two answers to the question you have originally asked. I think I even gave you the basis for the math you requested. I will recap for you: GCMS says, “$1000-$2500” I say, “$1200” with a shrug and, “if you’re lucky.”
Remember you are neither pricing, nor selling “uniqueness.” You are likely pricing a very plumb colored, poorly preserved relic that might be super cool, but may also just be a larger version of typical scrap.
“Surprisingly good” and “with no repairs” aren’t exactly boasts of high condition and at 32 inches on a 6 bore —shortening seems better than possible, maybe even “surprisingly likely.”Now that wouldn’t classify as a repair would it ?
Love to see it Ed. Take those “pitchers” and show it to us.
I purchased an eight gauge English double by Lewis and Thomes a few years ago. It was really nice, cleanest bores I have ever seen on a M-Loader, nice stock, great colors on the Damascus barrels. I think I got a great deal on G-B for $600. Only problem was the USPS broke it completely in two!!! I was devastated! I did get an 80% refund and traded it off to an expert who repaired it.
Before going further down the "one of one" story line, here are the extant big-bore (4, 6, 8 gauge) Reilly rifles and shotguns from the Reilly database along with barrel lengths and weights when published. For Reilly at least rifle barrel lengths were 22-28". Shotgun barrel lengths varied but for most big bores were at least 36" and as long as 44". Pictures will be posted for comparison sake once Ed puts up the pictures of this gun. Somehow one doubts a muzzle-loader being built as late as 1895 but who knows:
Reilly 4 bores: 11937 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London; 4 bore, Shotgun single barrel; U-L, non-rebounding hammer gun (original muzzle loader, converted to center-break/center-fire by J. Squires) 15 lb2oz; 40” brl 15625 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502, New Oxford Street, London, 2, rue Scribe Paris. 4 bore (marked 7 on barrel proofs). Shotgun SxS. pin-fire (converted); U-L, hammer gun. 15964 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford St., London. 4 bore SxS rifle. pin-fire (converted), U-L, hammer gun. 18lbs10oz; 26” brls 18860 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & rue Scribe. Paris. 4 bore Shotgun SxS. U-L, non-rebounding hammer gun. 18lbs12oz; 42” brls
Reilly 6 bores: ..4573 - J.C. Reilly, 316, High Holborn, London. Single barrel, 6 bore (7 on barrel) dangerous game. Muzzle loader, hammer gun. 26” brl. ..7802 - J.C. Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 6 bore, Single Barrel, muzzle loader, wildfowl hammer gun, 42” brl ..84xx - Reilly, 502, Oxford Street, London; 6 Bore; Shotgun, single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader. 26” brl. ..8578?- Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 6 bore single barrel, fowling gun, hammer gun, muzzle loader. 42.5” brl 10315 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 6 bore. Shotgun; single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader. 38” brl
You said in the other thread you were choosy about who you do business with, and I was basically on your black list. Why the big change of philosophy? You wouldn't be guilty of hypocrisy, would you?
Originally Posted by ed good
as for my gun return policy, it is quite flexible and adaptable, depending on how the other person represents himself...as for you personally, I try very hard to avoid doing bidness wid weirdos...
There is a Reilly 4 bore with "7" stamped on the barrels; there are two Reilly 8 bores with "7" on the barrels. I respect auction advertisements but everything including serial numbers must be suspect until one sees the barrel flats and proof marks. Look forward to photos.
That’s quite a find—congrats. True **6 bore doubles** are definitely on the scarce side, especially compared to the more commonly encountered 8s and 10s. Most were built for very specialized use, so survival rates in *shootable, unaltered condition* are fairly low. Even without a maker’s name, the Liège marks suggest quality continental production. If the bores and wall thickness check out, you’ve got something both collectible and impressive. Not something you run across every day.
In Lord of the Rings, Saruman had a gift for talking and people unaware could easily be bewitched according to Gandalf. However, photos speak louder than words. Look forward to seeing them, Ed.
In Lord of the Rings, Saruman had a gift for talking and people unaware could easily be bewitched according to Gandalf. However, photos speak louder than words. Look forward to seeing them, Ed.
I'll bet we will see pictures of Ed's 6 gauge percussion double a lot sooner than we see proof that E.M. Reilly employed over 300 gun makers.
The correct saying is "One picture is worth a thousand words."
Another particularly relevant saying is "people who live in glass houses should refrain from throwing stones."
Voting for anti-gun Democrats is dumber than giving treats to a dog that shits on a Persian Rug
That’s a fascinating piece—congrats on the find. A true 6 bore double in that kind of condition doesn’t come along often. The 6 bore itself is a massive ~.919 caliber and was already falling out of favor by the late 1800s as more practical bores like 8 and 10 became dominant . Add in muzzle-loading, double barrels, and no-name/continental production, and you’re looking at something produced in relatively small numbers even in its day.
If it’s still tight, unmolested, and shootable, that pushes it into genuinely scarce territory. Not “one of one,” but certainly uncommon enough to get attention from collectors of big-bore sporting arms.
MG, forgive me for being a skeptical curmudgeon but how can you say this gun is a "fascinating piece," when you haven't seen it? It may or may not exist. Do you know Ed?
Ed aka MG seems incapable of posting a photo. However, if this gun exists, It may be the first one on this list from 1840:
1). Original British Massive Double Barrel 6 Bore Percussion Shotgun with Liège Proofs - circa 1840 https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...proofs-circa-1840?variant=31156900757573 Original Item: Only One Available. We just received this lovely example along with about 200 other guns, from a collection that sat in an attic for close to 100 years. It is a MASSIVE double barrel British Percussion Shotgun, with 31 inch barrels in an unbelievable SIX BORE. We had thought them to be 8 bore, but they measure out to be about .92", which is definitely 6 bore/gauge. This shotgun would have kicked like several mules when fired, unleashing a massive wave of shot. The shotgun was at least partially made in Belgium, as the sides of both barrels bear a "Tower of Liège" proof mark. The gun is totally un-signed but stamped REAL TWIST on the strap between the two barrels on the top, and looking at the grain of the barrel, they definitely are twist steel. The side action locks are nicely engraved but not named. The gun features engraved iron mounts, and comes complete with its original wooden brass-tipped ram rod. In very presentable display condition, however the wrist of the wood butt stock was at one time broken and was repaired by adding two brass plates, one to each side of the wrist and fully inset into the stock. A logical repair in the 1840's but this gun, especially being this very large bore, should NOT be FIRED today. Most impressive and ready to display! Specifications-
Year of Manufacture: circa 1840 Caliber: about 92" 6 gauge / bore Cartridge Type: Cap and Shot Barrel Length: 31 Inches Overall Length: 48 Inches Action type: Side Action Percussion Locks Feed System: Muzzle Loaded
2): 6 Gauge muzzle loader 1840 sold by Holt's - he valued it at 5-7,000 £
Mid-19th century, 35 5/8in. rebrowned twist sighted barrels (slightly shortened), patent breeches engraved with a pheasant and inlaid with two platinum lines on the rib between, border and scroll engraved tang and locks, the latter each signed 'SAML. HARPER MAKER', figured walnut half-stock with chequered grip, engraved iron mounts including scrolled trigger-guard (engraving worn), white metal barrel-bolt escutcheons and scroll engraved fore-end cap, inset silvered plaque in front of the trigger-guard engraved 'BENJAMIN CAUNT / CHAMPION OF ENGLAND', and original brass-tipped ramrod with worm, Birmingham proof marks. Provenance: It is understood that this gun was used in live pigeon matches by Benjamin Caunt (1815-1861), heavyweight pugilist 'Champion of England' from 1838 until 1845 (the title being briefly lost in 1841 to Nick Ward but won back the same year). Weighing in at 18 stones and standing at 6 feet 2 inches Caunt was well equipped for the life of a bare-knuckle prize fighter when, prior to the introduction of the Marquis of Queensbury rules in 1867, fights could last upwards of two hours with rounds lasting as long as the protagonists each stayed on their feet. Caunt won his title in 1838 from Bendigo William Thompson in a contest lasting 76 rounds. It was to Bendigo that he was to finally relinquish the title in 1845 after a 96 round fight with a controversial verdict given by the referee. On the tide of the international popularity of pugilism Caunt successfully toured America in the 1840's and it is thought he challenged Tom Hyer, heavyweight champion of America, but no fight was held. Following his retirement from the ring Caunt became a publican running the Coach & Horses Inn on St. Martins Lane in London, and a fight promoter, sponsoring the future 'Champion of England' Nat Langham in his early career as a heavyweight prize fighter. It is now generally accepted that the hour bell in the clock tower at Westminster was popularly named 'Big Ben' in honour of Caunt. A former Member of Parliament, Mr. George Caunt, discovered how the bell came to be named from old Westminster documents. Big Ben Caunt died on 10th September 1861 aged 46 in London from a cold caught at a live pigeon match. He was buried in his home village of Hucknall, Nottinghamshire in the same graveyard as Lord Byron Field and Rural Life Magazine and Media Network is the finest online Rural Magazine covering everything to do with Rural Britain.
3). https://www.flickr.com/photos/24501307@N07/51024546266 6 Gauge Double Shotgun By James Donn, Canton, Illinois This was an Illinois River Duck & Goose Gun, before it became illegal to hunt with any shotgun larger than a 10 gauge.
Gunmaker James Donn was born in Lake County, Illinois in 1839, of Scottich ancestry. He apprenticed to James R. McQuaid, an earlier Canton, Illinois gunsmith/gunmaker, in 1854. After learning the basic skills of the trade, Donn went to Chicago to finish his apprenticeship with another gunsmith (identity unknown) who specialized in shotguns. Donn returned to Canton and opened his own shop in 1859. This 6 gauge double barreled percussion shotgun was made by him sometime between 1859 and 1873, Shotguns made 1873 and later are marked J. Donn & Bro. J. Donn & Bro. (William Donn) remained in business until 1900, at which time the partnership was dissolved. James Donn continued the business alone until his death in 1911.
Stan, old muzzle loading shotguns when shot a lot, loosen up where the barrels hook on to the breaches...
watt bout out deal?
don you welch on me!
You're reaching there. You absolutely know that's not what doublegun enthusiasts mean by looseness. I have shot, and own original m/l doubleguns. I've never seen where any looseness that you attempt to allude to has ever been an issue.
As for what you want to consider a "deal" between us, be crystal clear on this . . . . there has been only one "deal" between us. There will never, I mean NEVER, be another. Caveat Emptor.
That's quite a rounding error...£7,000 = $9,473 and change right now...~5.6%
Ed did in fact say "almost 10 grand".
If I paid $9,473 for a gun, it wouldn't be at all dishonest to say I paid almost 10 grand. He did not say he was rounding to the nearest thousand to satisfy some anal internet nitpicker who felt the need to do a calculation down to tenths of a percent... in order to pile on Ed.
Ed also said that past transaction was "12 years ago", so it's safe to say the value of the Pound in Dollars was not exactly what it is today.
Too bad TransGomer Geoff didn't apply the same standards of accuracy to Argo's totally unproven assertion that E.M. Reilly employed over 300 gun makers. And he won't, because Argo44 is on TransGomer Geoff's "good" side.
It is also quite revealing to see certain people hypocritically choosing who they decide is guilty of personally attacking others... while ignoring other equally personal attacks, and while they engage in their own personal attacks. But it happens here all the time, so I'm not just singling out TransGomer Geoff. There is no shortage of guys like Gladys Kravitz who would like to dictate how this forum runs, and who should be banned or censored. However, so far, none of them just leaves and starts their own forum in their own twisted image.
When I joined this forum some years ago, I myself joined in the chorus of folks who attacked Ed, and it seemed to be a popular position. But over time, I came to realize that several of Ed's detractors are far worse human beings, and much more worthy of derision and criticism. Ed has pretty much settled into being a consignment FFL holding gun dealer who at least has the integrity to pay Dave the $12.00 fee when he sells something here. It appears he merely takes in guns on consignment, and resells them for whatever profit he might make. I don't agree with everything he says, and I'm sure he doesn't always agree with me. I don't feel I need to judge him on a long past return policy that he apparently changed to Dave's satisfaction as a condition for advertising here. He posts some links to grouse hunting videos or such, and he isn't actively supporting anti-gun Democrats on a firearms forum... which is beyond stupid for any gun owner.
Ed even reminds folks who buy his guns off of GunBroker or G.I. to say if they saw it advertised here," So Dave gits paid". Contrast that with those who have long used this forum to promote their own businesses, and to engage in Free Tagline Advertising, and won't even say whether they pay Dave the $12.00 fee for each and every sale resulting from decades of Free Advertising.
Voting for anti-gun Democrats is dumber than giving treats to a dog that shits on a Persian Rug
I had it measured before giving it to my daughter-in-law. It was fine - hasn't disfigured her. . .,yet. The gun was what I wanted and we both walked away content.
But Ed, I know you won't understand this. But, basically you are a con-man, and really seem to get off by putting something over on another. You could have told me the gun was out of proof. You chose not to. That's a loss of integrity and trust. I know those two words are for losers. . .right?
Ed, I recall Argo44 whining before about that French gun he bought from you. He said he bought it for his daughter in law, but complained it had thin barrel walls.
He didn't offer us any proof, but he did admit you offered to give him a refund. He chose to keep the gun, but continues to cry about it. If it had been dangerously thin, does anyone really think he would have kept it for his own daughter in law to use?
I called him out on that when he admitted you offered him a refund, but chose to keep it and let his daughter in law use it. He had no answer, and put his tail between his legs and left the discussion. I can't believe he would be foolish enough to think I'd forget that phoney complaining, and come back years later to do it again.
But Argo44 needs a target, and you're it. There's another hypocrite who complains about vitriol being the ruination of this forum, again using pure bullshit to denigrate you and hopefully hurt your business... which of course would lead to less of those $12.00 fees you pay Dave when you sell guns here.
As I often say, you can learn a lot about Double Guns here, but you can learn more about people if you pay close attention.
Voting for anti-gun Democrats is dumber than giving treats to a dog that shits on a Persian Rug
argo, when you say the gun was out of proof, what the hell do you mean by that?
we have no gubmint imposed proof tax here in the us of a...
an one does not stay in any bidness for over forty years, operating under ones real name, by being a con man...
an argo, you claim if I do not post pitchers of the 6 bore doublegon here, as you demand, then I am a liar...
well, what if when you first whined about honed bores, around ten years ago, my response was...
"honed bores? watt honed bores? you are a liar"...
but no, I acknowledged the issue, and advised you the gun was safe to shoot, based upon the opinion of my trusted gunsmith...
does that sound like the words of a con man?...
as for the six bore gun, as indicated in a previous post, images will be posted in my gi listing, which will be referenced in the for sale section of this fine doublegon forum...
Just looked over your listing and fotos ed. Cool gun! Id never restore it but given its a no name Belgian id give it a good cleaning and some sympathetic work to the wood finish- if it were my gun that is. Nominal bore size for 6 gauge is .919" Did the bores measure exactly .900" ath the muzzle? If so id bet it is a 7 bore
I may have been born at night...but i was not born last night!!!
Top to bottom: Probably 'PF' and likely the Twist barrel maker who I can't ID Possibly the inspector's mark. If crowned, prior to 1877. FD is likely Ferdinand Drissen active 1874-1900 On L the Provisional Proof mark and bore 22.8mm at the time of 1st obligatory proof. On R the Belgian Proof House mark. No way to date the gun further.
22.8mm(.8976") right between 7(.873")and 6 (.919") considering your measurements id say 22.8mm is definitely the bore size neither 6bore nor 7 bore. Super common No name Belgian guns were sold prolifically through the gun trade, and they certainly prioritized low cost and high manufacturing amounts over adhering to strict tolerances and standardizations of the American or English gun market. The result? we have loads of 19th century, Belgian trade guns that don't adhere to the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12, etc. Etc, gauge sizes, there were plenty of half gauge or in-between gauge guns sold out of Belgium and many other countries in fact. The good news is 6 guage Fibre cushion and overshot cards at .935" will still slide down those barrels. I wouldn't bother using the nitro cards they'd be too hard to load. Its a shame we have ten gauge max here for turkey hunting, a gun like this would be a turkey thumpin sun uva gun!!! Best of luck with the sale ed!
Last edited by SeñorCasualidad; 05/04/2608:05 PM.
I may have been born at night...but i was not born last night!!!
Appreciate the acknowledgement of the effort to help ed. It's a utility grade percussion double, of interest because of the gauge, by a (likely) known but not 'Belgian Best' maker, intended for export in light of the 'REAL TWIST' barrels, that may have a cracked stock. Probably not a museum candidate.
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