doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Another rare double

And now for something completely different...

Yeah, a neat & very rare Gustav Kersten offering under DRP #141334(DE141334 if you want to search yourself). Gustav Kersten was a relative of Dietrich Apel.

https://germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kersten-gustav/

„Drehblockverschluss für mehrläufge Gewehre mit Festliegenden Läufen“









Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

It is impressive to see the real *origin* of the LATER and well-known incarnation of the so-called Kerstenverschluss, which soon simply became a double Greener.
It's like studying paleontology. :-) Like, you mean THIS CRITTER was the first "horse"?!

That one is also impressively overengineered. Basically, a light artillery piece with a reluctant wooden interface to humans.

Carcano

6,35 Carcano:

I would have to pull the other DRPs for Kersten namely #192183, #201507 and no. #217832, but for the moment I a quite confident that DRP #41334 was Gustav Kersten's 1st attempt @ a Behemoth vertikal Tabernacle Lock(vault) variant??

There are a couple DRGMs mind you, but I don't think they are this complicated.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Just a generic question: if tubeset extension is in the centre, it is defined as a Greener. If the tubeset extension w/ circular cross bar is flanked on each side, it is a Kersten. But if the extension is to one side only is it still defined as a Greener?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Most definitely yes.

So Greener's contribution to a tube extension lockup is a single extension with a circular or square hole anywhere along the interface of the action - tubeset?

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

That's how we see it in Central Europe.

P.S.: Central Europe extends to Lemberg and Czernowitz in the Southeast, and Reval in the Northeast (plus many manor houses).
That's about the maximum extent. (Ultra sunt leones...)

Carcano

If not Dragons; in the event you don't encounter Dragons, you fall off the edge of the world.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Get your bids in lads; just a couple hours left...


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Interesting that the 9,3X74R is noted by a plug gauge diameter stamp of 108/49.... Had to be made right @ 1910.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

You know, I have pondered on that 108/49 Plug Gauge Stamp & I wonder if that is a large enough diameter to be the 9,3X74R; but maybe the 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn?


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Sold, whatever it is, for $1980.....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Plug Gauge 108/49 would equate to 0.350".

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

108/49 most often results in a groove diameter of about .362"(using a cast bullet of around .364"). This will work with either 9.3x74R or 9.3x72R Sauer and Sohn. A chamber cast will be necessary to determine the chambering; even then the dimensions are so similar that the rifling twist might need to be determined to verify the choice (the S+S cartridge used a 185-grain bullet calling for a slower twist rifling), as some 9.3x74R cartridges may chamber in some 9.3x72R S+S Rifles.
Mike

Great Info Ford and that was for which I was searching.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Yep ... I bought it ... I inquired if it was in fact a 9.3x74R before bidding. And they said yes ... "9.3x74R" ... NOT 9.3x72R ... Since I shoot everything, I wanted to be sure ... I will not be shooting max loads since it is a single barrel, and doesn't need to regulate like a 9.3x74R double rifle.

I didn't know it was talked about here on Double Gun ....I did buy it ... but .. Unfortunately .. it cost $2157 with all the fees ... delivered ... update from doing a chamber cast and and field shooting test to follow. I should receive it later this week.

If I had noticed you were bidding, I would have bid......

But the difference between the 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn and the 9,3X74R are subtle. 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn is not the 9,3X72R with which everyone is familiar. Ford has stoked and ignited a handfull of 9,3X74R in a 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Pictures in the listing show Norma 9.3x74R cartridges in the chamber and cartridge trap. Close inspection will show if either has been modified. But, that's a pretty snappy cartridge for a gun that's 116 years old. Perhaps that's why the stock was damaged and repaired. I have lots of Big Bores so there is no need for me to Max out the loading. I want to have fun shooting the rifle, not damaging it.

Again, a 9,3X74R will chamber into a 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn without modification. But a chamber cast will always ferret out the demon cartridge.

it is good to see that someone on the board made the acquisition.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

This early Kersten contraption is a fascinating gun. Almost as ugly as a Winchester 1887 (which, by the way, was successfully used in Germany back then, when hunters when not quite as reactionary and backwards as they are today...).
It reminds me of the Terminator, in a way....

Hello,
I have been looking for drawings to show the difference between the 2 cartridges, but cannot find a drawing for the Sauer 9.3x74r .. do you, or anyone, have a drawing that I can use to compare to a chamber cast?

buckstix,
I don't have drawings, but the head diameter of 9.3x74R is supposed to be.468" (usually smaller) vs. .473" (I don't have original cases to check original dia.) for the S+S, and the S+S case is 2mm (nominal) shorter than the 74R. My own 9.3x72R S+S will chamber 9.3x74 R cartridges because the cases are heavily crimped into the crimping groove of the bullet, allowing it to enter the shorter chamber. I found out early that it would not shoot bullets longer than the 286-grain round nose. It was not until I came home to the US and started handloading ammo with shorter 250 grain spitzer bullets that I discovered that a 250-grain bullet would not enter a 9.3x74R case fired in that rifle but would enter a case fired in my Heym double rifle. I now just shorten the cases 2mm and load them with 9.3x74R dies and charge weight. It should be noted that proof marks included the bore diameter, but not case length. Also, it was obvious that a 9.3x72R normalizert case is way too small diameter for the chamber.
Mike

Thank you ... we are talking about the 9.3x74R Sauer ... not the 9.3x72R Sauer .. correct?

Hmm. I have never heard of a specific "9,3x74R Sauer", as opposed to the normal and rather common 9,3x74R.
Quite different from the shouldered 9,3x72R Sauer, opposed to its three other different, although namesake, non-shouldered incarnations (namely E, D, and Norm.).

Neither is a 9,3x74R Sauer mentioned in the (fairly authoritative) list of the many various Sauer cartridges, here:
https://germanhuntingguns.com/the-j-p-sauer-sohn-cartridges/

But I could well be wrong, so kindly educate me.

Weidmannsheil,
Carcano

Indeed, 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn vs 9,3X74R.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

https://germanhuntingguns.com/the-j-p-sauer-sohn-cartridges/





Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the reply.

Is it true that the 9.3x72R Sauer is a much "less powerful" cartridge than the modern 9.3x74R cartridge? I can find no ballistic info for the 9.3x72R Sauer.
I hope to have a chamber cast on Friday to determine the actual caliber of the rifle barrel.

Right off I for one do not have any ballistic data on it but I would >>assume<< it was >>less powerful<< that the 9,3X74R. But this situation is the perfekt storm where the flats are marked w/ just a diameter „108/49“ and the few brave souls have been feeding it 9,3X74R ammo, for which it may very well be chambered, but it is actually the 9,3X72R Sauer & Sohn. Just too many unknowns and not being stamped in mm and „9,3X74R“, which would have been the case post circa 1910, to just blindly keep feeding it a healthy diet 9,3X74R cartridges and pulling a >>Ford<<.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

buckstix,
There is/was no common 9.3X74R Sauer +Son. The 9.3X72R Sauer +Son is mostly known through various collector's publications which show some dimensions (bullet diameter shown by collectors is sometimes smaller than the actual diameter because of measuring the portion of the bullet outside the case of a scarce sample of the cartridge, which would be damaged if the bullet was pulled to measure it), but seldom show ballistic data. One well known publication has ballistic data for many cartridges, but sometimes shows incorrect data or dimensions, and even it has nothing, but bullet weight shown. It is my unsolicited opinion that you can shoot your rifle by loading ammunition with common 9.3x74 R cases that have been trimmed by 2 mm, and the 193-grain bullet intended for the 9.3x72R normalizert or other shorter 9.3 bullets. In deference to the age of your rifle, conservative powder charges should be used. You can use normal 9.3x74R dies adjusted to partially size the cases to just "kiss" the shoulder, to prevent head separation. With your experience loading for double barrel rifles, any load that gives groups satisfactory to you will likely be "correct" one. Have fun.
Mike

Like I said, I hope to have a chamber cast on Friday to determine the actual caliber of the rifle barrel.