doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1895 Reilly double-rifle. Patent? Proof Marks?

Terry Buffum forwarded these photos - only half came through so far. SN 34203 would date to 1895. left handed stock - pistol grip as normal on Reilly rifles. Looks slightly off face. London proof marks but since it's a rifle hard to say when between 1868 and 1903. Terry said it is chambered for 9.3 x 74R. The mark "357 EE" is a new one. Presumably this should be the caliber but what exactly does it mean? Might the stamp actually be "937" rather that "357"? Also what is 1886 UK Patent 4338 (use# 9537)?

The original proof marks were removed when reproved by the London Proof House; which did not start using a date code until 1972 and which is not marked.
I am no help with what looks to be 'LLG"?
'EE' was used by Eley-Kynoch, and I think it is '957' on the L barrel flat

German cartridge probably for South Africa? Wondering if the "957" or "937" might be related to the 9.3x74? That line 937EE is obviously added at a later reproof date as Dr. Drew suggested.

Still trying to figure out the 1886 patent 4338. 9,000 of them from 1886 to 1895 is a considerable number. Wondering if this is related to the 13 Dec 1886 - Deeley patent 4289 - ejector system found on other Reilly's?

There are now 753 Reilly's built from 1828 to 1912 whose parameters are known. That's a goodly amount.

The "937EE" stamps do not look like anything the proof house would have added to me, they do look like several rifles that I have seen that were re-numbered for the South African firearms registry though.

957 EE or 937EE could well be a South African or Colonial registration mark and nothing to do with the Proof Status or calibre.

I can’t see any Proof Marks for 9.3 x 74R. I suspect from the date that it started life as a .360 Express?

Are there any more markings under the tubes or on top of the barrels?

[URL=https://imgbox.com/zOPyLwCw][/URL

Another Reilly exhibiting a Greener pattern side safety is this 12 bore stock and action number 26885 on offer in Southams forthcoming sale.

The action shape looks similar to Greener’s Facile Princeps action.

The rifle featured in this thread has an Anson and Deeley action but with a Greener cross bolt and safety.

IF it was produced by Greener for Reilly there may be some records at Greener’s that Graham Greener could access.

Thanks to all. I've been unable to get additional usable photos so far from Terry - looks like a downloading problem. However, Justin pointed out that if you turn the image of the Patent number upside down, it does indeed read 4289 and is the Deeley patent ejector system: (kind of need to smack myself in the forehead):


As for whether Greener built actions for Reilly, the history needs to be read again since this was pretty much its point. The story of Reilly being a retailer or finishing other's actions is hard to kill. However, all the evidence from years of work point to Reilly making his own guns and paying license fees as needed.

The Greener triple wedge cross bolt was patented in 1873 and the patent expired in 1887. There was no need to have a Greener patent use number on this 1895 gun. It was not that difficult to build and there are several existing Reilly's using that system..

There is surely one pretty firm exception to the "Reilly built his own serial numbered guns" thesis: In 1881 he announced that he was going to sell guns off the rack and simultaneously began to advertise the box lock. Surely like everyone in the London gun trade he got his actions from Birmingham and finished them in house. The evidence supporting this is circumstantial but compelling. Throughout the 1870's Reilly was making and selling around 650 serial numbered guns a year, more than Holland & Holland and Purdey combined. His two large workshops had plenty of floorspace but this looks to have been their manufacturing capacity. Suddenly in 1882 it jumped up to over 1,000 a year with no increase in space. Looking at the extant Reilly's from that period about 35% are boxlocks which would fit the above postulation - 650 fully manufactured guns - 350 actions imported from Birmingham and finished.

The action that Para posted SN 26885, would be dated to 1885. If a Greener Facile Princeps system (Greener's copy of the Anson & Deeley box lock that he got away with), it should have a patent use number on it. I will ask Southams about this. It is possible that Reilly bought the action as he apparently did for his A&D boxlocks. I have not seen another Reilly with the Facile Princeps action. There is another Reilly using the Greener safety etc and a Greener "Royal action" (no idea what that is), however; unfortunately the Serial Number is unknown::
http://www.gunsinternational.com/gu...ique-action-ejector.cfm?gun_id=100444651


There is one other action from this period that he also might have sourced from Birmingham, the Scott triplex action Pat 761 with Perks, crystal indicators. However, the Reilly's using this action, and there are several including one I own, do have patent use numbers on them.


Anyway as usual the observations and knowledgeable commentary is unique to this board. I'll query Southam's about 26885.

I do not believe that gun with the Greener safety is a FP action, they are usually tapered toward the knuckle as they don't need to make room for the cocking dogs.

The rifle which features at the start of this thread is clearly an Anson and Deeley action with a slab sided action and visible cocking levers.

The stock and action from Southams that I pictured has the tapered action you describe and could well be a Facile Princeps.

Terry said the other photos show no other marks. He and the owner are worried it has been rechambered and not reproofed. I've forward parabola's suggestion that it was originally a .360 express and also the speculation that the original proof marks on caliber required on an 1895 UK proofed gun were erased and replaced with the 957EE mark. . .perhaps in South Africa? Thanks.

Southams has been queried asking for patent marks on the action flats of the Reilly action Parabola posted. If Facile Pranceps or A&D it should have a patent use number. If the former it would be a first (and no doubt related to the xxxxx gun posted in response). Southams has been singularly uncooperative in the past unlike Holts or others.

Sherlock Holmes would love the UK 19th century gun trade.

Southams has graciously added pictures of the Reilly stock/action/forend SN 26885. Several are posted below. I do not know what a Greener Facile Princeps action looks like. However, this does not look like a box lock. And, If this were an A&D box lock it would have the A&D Patent use mark,

This has a patent use mark G(?)&N patent 2003(?) use# 635. This use number is quite low. Would appreciate some advice on the action and on what the patent stamp is referring to. It may merit an addition to the history. This is a very handsome action, fully engraved and was obviously a Reilly high-end gun. Thanks.
https://www.southamsauction.co.uk/a...alse&sd=0&pp=48&pn=1&g=1

Looks like an FP action to me, you can see the tips of the hammers through the front lug recess in the watertable, the gun cocks via an extension on the lump of the barrels like an FP does. The top-lever sure is odd though.

Buckstix's gun. Greener Royal G grade with patent 2003. Is this patent a follow-on to the Greener 1880 patent 930 for the facile princeps? Is it a separate patent? For what? Is the small elephant a Greener trademark? (Birmingham proofs on the Greener - London proofs on the Reilly).



Edit; Mystery solved: Greener's ejector patent No. 2003 of 1881. However, is the Reilly using Greener patent 930 as well? No stamps. Wonder if Greener might have any records of actions licensed to be produced by others or actions sold to other gun-makers?
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=238361

G.& N. stands for Greener and Needham’s patent (see my Cameleopard thread) and if I remember correctly relates to the ejectors which were a Needham design.

The gun at Southams is certainly a Facile Princeps, note the tips of the cocking bars at the back of the forward lump slot, and the stud for the “jumping Jack” top lever hold open.

Note also the Westley Richards style dolls head top extension and sliding bolt (as on the gun I owned Reilly no. 30227).

The elephant on Buckstick’s gun is indeed a Greener trade mark.

Thanks Para and SKB. Those were very educational posts. I've sent the conclusions to Southam's and have included the Reilly date chart. This text has been added to the History chapter 71:

XI: Reilly – 1880’s:
. . .71. 1882: Selling Off The Rack

In addition to the A&D boxlocks mentioned above Reilly may well have sourced two other actions from Birmingham:

, , ,-- Scott 1878 patent 761 “Triplex” action often used with Perkes crystal cocking indicators; This action was pictured on the January 1882 Reilly advertisement introducing guns sold off the rack. Extant serial numbered Reilly’s using the Triplex Action, all of which have Scott patent use numbers, include SN’s 24736, 25038, 25039, 26733, 27385, 27446, 27644, 27853, 27854, 27853.



. . .-- Greener 1880 patent 930 Facile Princeps action often coupled with the G&N 1881 patent 2003 - ejectors. There are three extant examples, all highly engraved and finished; They are all proofed in London vice Birmingham for the Greener FP's and none of the Reilly's have the Greener elephant trademark stamp: SN 26885, 30227, and one whose SN has not been published. However, a knowledgeable scholar has stated that Greener is not known to have sold FP actions "in the white"; He is known to have licensed the FP for production by other makers though this is "extremely rare."

Not realising that Gene would succeed in inveigling Southams into posting photos of the markings on the action, I splashed out a £2 minimum bid on this stock and action,to see what it might reveal.

I have just increased my collection of early boxlocks by 1/2 a gun.

For those worried about my sanity I am NOT planning to commission a new set of FP barrels.

Wow!! Just amazing. That seems a very attractive action and engraving. A new set of barrels should be easy to get. . .he he.:). (Turkey maybe).

I would like to ask Greener some questions. Does Greener still respond? Does anyone have an email address? The Greener website lists none. Thanks.

This letter was sent to Greener, info Graham Greener. We'll see if a response is forthcoming;

Sirs; I have written a long history of Reilly of London which has changed the perception of the company quite a bit and the dating chart of which is now used by most auction houses. it was published in attenuated edited form in 2019 in Diggory Hadoke's on-line magazine but with 10 years of research is now 260 pages long. The text can be read here on p,94 of this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=94

In January 1882 Reilly first advertised selling guns "off the rack." Up to that time from 1828 on if he serial numbered a gun, it was built in one of his two large London workshops. However, congruently in 1882 his yearly serial number production jumped from around 650 a year where it has been for 10 years to over 1,000 - this without an increase in floor space. This indicates that like the rest of the London trade he began to import A&D boxlock actions from Birmingham to be finished in London. He began to advertise the boxlock at the same time.

In researching the 1880's, I have discovered three serial numbered Reilly's with Facile Princeps actions, one from 1885, one from 1890 and one whose serial number was not published. These actions have the G&N patent 2003 with a use number but no Greener patent 930 use number. They are proofed in London and do not have the Greener elephant on them.

I've speculated that he bought the actions from Greener. However, Reilly was also known to make copies of others' patents under license. I'm attaching photographs of the 1885 action. By any chance do you have any records of sale of FP actions in the white to other gunmakers in the 1880's time period? Did Greener license their patents to be made by others?

Many thanks. The history of UK gun-making is a never-ending Sherlock Holmes tale and anything you might add would be historical. (I have long since queried Purdey about Reilly's use of their patent 1104 but their records are "locked up" according to Nick Hardy.)

Gene Williams
McLean, Virginia

https://www.southamsauction.co.uk/a...alse&sd=0&pp=48&pn=1&g=1

No response from Greener - which is apparently not surprising these days. The above message was recently forwarded to Diggory Hadoke asking if he knew anything about FP being made by other firms. Here is his short response:

Gene, I have not spoken to Graham for about a year. He is very old now. I did once have a Facile Princeps by Jackson and my research then suggested no record of Greener selling actions to others. fp guns by other firms are very rare.

The above leaves the subject up in the air. i.e. Greener did not sell actions to other firms. However, FP actions made by other firms are very rare (but do exist). Thus Reilly may have made the three extant serial-numbered FP actions under license. But this is not definitive.

It may be a while before I collect the stock and action of Reillynumber 26,885, but when I do I will take off the bottom plate snd stock to see if there are any further markings.

Look forward to anything you can find out. I don't believe this subject, Greener possibly licensing other firms to build the action, has ever been addressed. The impression from reading (and I have never physically handled a FP), was that the action was somewhat complex and required precision to build, something most firms in the 1880's wouldn't bother with since the AD box lock was so available. But one must account for the eccentricity of UK buyers at the time. And Reilly - like Walmart today - attempted to satisfy all demand.