doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Adjusting Point of Impact for vintage guns

For vintage & antique guns is there a way to adjust point of impact?

I have a couple of guns* I like, but shoot very poorly, probably because they don't fit me correctly and I'm wondering if there is a relatively inexpensive and easy way to adjust the point of impact.

Or am I better off just selling them and putting the money toward a gun that does fit. I'd rather shoot a pretty gun reasonably well versus an ugly gun I shoot very well.

On edit: I'll note that I am right handed, with a left eye dominance and shoot all long guns off my left shoulder.

The guns are single barrel Greener for trap using the Martini - Henry action, which is an action I really like; the other is a Mears SxS, a pretty gun. I rarely break in double digits with either gun for trap & skeet respectively.

Sure, there're ways. Busy irrigating corn right now, but I'll post tonight about it.

Don't lose hope!

Bending the stock, adding an adjustable comb, having the guns restocked, sanding down the comb if the stock is to high, adding a length via a pad or wood extension...

Lots of options if you're willing to spend the money.

Personally, I sell guns I can't shoot well.

try adjusting your shooting style to the gun...

and not the other way around...

In simplistic terms. .stock alteration,as required.
Adjust drop at comb and heel
Adjust cast off/on
Alter length.
After lesson and professional check.
I've had several guns altered to my measurements over the years( by qualified persons) and have been happy with results
Regards.

Have you patterned the guns? I sometime shoot my pigeon guns and they shoot high. So I know to adjust where I shoot the target at.

I have several shotguns with LOP a bit too short for me which also need a little more cast and more drop. The Beartooth slip-on recoil pad, which comes with 4 foam rubber shims of thickness varying from 1/4 to 5/8 inches, has proved very useful. Increasing the LOP will, because it moves your face back on the stock, also increase cast and drop. This has been just the ticket for me. Further, using a slip-on pad which is easily adjustable allows you to shorten LOP to account for a heavy coat, as with hunting in cold weather.
Of course all of this us useful only for increasing LOP and increasing drop and cast. Decreasing LOP would require shortening the stock. There are pads available for raising the comb or adding width (ie decreasing existing cast).

I do not recommend this, but years ago I had a friend, a German double collector, that would take a Dremel tool and grind here and there on the chokes at the muzzle. He could affect lots of changes in pattern and point of impact.

Always the worst possible path, IMO.

Better to alter the gun, or move it down the road.

You might try one of these leather lace-on cheek risers. You will need to remove padding or add it to meet your requirements.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/1-2-cheek-riser-tk15030.html

Sage advice from Don Amos AKA “Rocketman”
"Shoot what fits you, what you shoot well, and what you enjoy shooting. If you find a gun that fits all three of these…never, but never, sell it!"

And if none of the above applies, sell it and save yourself the frustration and money. Trying to make it right rarely works.
Or buy yourself a trap gun with adjustable everything and spend hours trying to make it 'just right' instead of shooting. Did that...and sold it with joy in my heart

I patterned the Greener single barrel trap gun and at about 15 yards the main charge of bird shot was 4"-5" was low at 4:30. If I'm visualizing it properly I would have to hold 4"-5" at 10:30, pretty much obscuring the bird.

Lacking a true LOP, DAC. DAH gauge, I used the method described on Midway by Larry Potterfield,so the below measurements should be within 1/16" There is no visible cast for either the Greener or the Mears

Greener:
w/o pad DAC 1 3/8”, DAH 2” LOP 13 7/8”; w/pad DAC 1/ 3/8” DAH 1 9/16” LOP 14

Mears Brothers:
LOP 14” DAC 7/8” DAH 1 9/16

Measurements of a gun that does fit me well:
LEOPOLD BIEDER OF VIENNA (FN 1930) STOCK: DAH: 2 5/16". DAC: 1 3/8" LOP 14 1/8"

How far can the average person go outside of their 'ideal fit' and still shot a gun reasonably well? A 1/8" inch or even a 1/4" inch

I think there are 2 problems to be discussed here. Whenever I've gotten a new shotgun, I have always started by shooting it off sandbags just like a rifle to see if POI matches up with POA. Most of the guns I've acquired in recent years were for turkey hunting, so it's essential for the gun to shoot straight. Most SxS shotguns are regulated for field loads, and they will not center the heavier turkey loads. A SxS is usually going to have L/R issues, while an O/U will often have Up/Down issues. The Dremel tool solution already mentioned can correct this, though I have just used a round file to center the pattern of several guns. It's much better to attempt this with a gun with removable chokes. You can always just replace the chokes if it doesn't work to suit you.

I have also found that some guns with just one barrel can have the Up/Down problems. I can live with a 60/40 pattern, but I had Benelli SBE that threw a 90/10 pattern with field loads, and I had to correct that. I think a shotgun oughta shoot true according to the front bead, and it is a flaw in the gun if it won't. A gun with one barrel that has L/R issues is seriously flawed, imo.

A gun that doesn't shoot straight is one problem; one that doesn't fit the shooter for wing shooting is a very different issue. I suspect that most of the advice you will get will be about this second problem. That one isn't a flaw in the gun; it just doesn't fit a particular shooter. Good luck with it, whichever problem it is.

As far as members of this board go, I fit the bottom-shelf category. I like old double guns and have made them fit with leather and Kydex riser for years. I had a Baker Black Beauty Special in 16-gauge that was choked full and fuller, and with a leather laced on pad I seldom missed a pheasant with it. To be honest, pheasant a somewhat rare around here. If you already have the gun, like it, and want to shoot it better, try a comb adjustment. If you can afford bespoke guns, get them, and avoid buying old guns with too much drop.

I recall reading somewhere about a gunsmith in New York State, it may have been one of Dan Lefever's sons, accepting a shotgun from a customer who complained of it shooting either too high or too low. As soon as the customer left his shop, he checked the gun, then removed the barrel and sharply smacked it across a pile of old telephone books to very slightly bend the barrel in the correct direction.

Easy money!

Yep.

I made the mistake of selling a gun I shot well once - a Thomas Wild hammer gun made in the 1930s, and set up as a live bird gun. I broke 30 clays in row on the old Yooper Shoot "pigeon ring" two years running (no, not all 30 ribbons fell in the ring) with it. I traded it in 2008 to Cabelas for an Arrieta that was pretty, but that i never shot well...and I've been looking for another for years.

The same gun turned up at an auction a few weeks ago...I thought it was a similar gun, but looking at photos of the one I'd owned, noticed it had the same serial number...

So I went after it hard and bought it back yesterday. This time, it'll get a proper pad (I shot it with a Galco slip on before) and a permanent spot in the safe.

That would be annoying.

That's a bunch of difference...

I don't think there is an "average person"; some people are adaptable, some aren't.

An instinctive shooter will be more effected by a gun that doesn't fit them than a more deliberate shooter who finds the right "sight picture" for a each gun. I'm the former, and a poorly fitting gun is useless to me.

Is the Greener GP one of the real Greener trap guns or is it a standard GP that you use for trap.?
What load are you using in it? .... ?fps and weight.
And have you had your shooting style with the gun checked by an instructor?

Chantry, I can see that you have me on "IGNORE", so you probably won't be able to read what I say. BUT- I'm thinking, No offense- but you didn't really pick very good guns to shoot serious trap. With those two guns you should probably just be shooting trap (especially) for "funsies". Maybe okay for skeet with the side by side- I don't know much about those two guns. But for trap- eeehhhh. But good luck and have fun!!

One of the old Greener GP trap guns from the 1950's, 1 oz of 7.5 @1150 - 1200. No to the instructor, but several experienced shooters have watched and they aren't seeing anything obvious as to why I am missing*. The few birds I do hit are mostly straight away with minimal climb. We are shooting wobble trap from the skeet pads.

* Give the patterning and the DAC & DAH I think it is mostly the fit. I may try again today, the last time I shot the LOP was 15" with the slip on pad, which is really too long for me. I took two of the foam rubber spacers out to get back to 14" LOP.

I only use the Greener GP for shooting wobble trap from the skeet pads. The Mears I use for sometimes for skeet. I'm not interested in being a "serious" trap or skeet shooter, but hitting less than 10 birds in a round isn't fun. (My average is about 18 or 19 and I'm having fun)

Was planning on typing a lengthy post on the many methods of moving point of impact on a shotgun, but decided differently.

The best advice I could ever give concerning this is to buy a copy of Stock Fitter's Bible by Rollin Oswald. It is truly a wealth of information about the subject.

I wouldn't be without my copy.

Best, SRH

One of the old Greener GP trap guns from the 1950's, 1 oz of 7.5 @1150 - 1200.

It may well be informative to use a heavier or faster load to re-assess the point of impact. I think that the 1oz load may be contributing to the low POI.

It was nice to read Geoff’s post about his having been able to buy back that Thomas Wild hammer gun.

I have a little list of guns that I wish that I had never sold, in particular a Damascus 20 bore E.M. Reilly early A.&D. later converted to ejector by Edwinson Green and a Patstone hammer 12 bore.

I check the U.K. auction sites, but they have probably gone abroad where they will be more likely to get better use.

The only other gun I regret letting go of was a 1931 Superposed with a 4-digit serial number. 30", 7 lbs., Twin-Single triggers, Non-Crossfire vent rib...

It'll be nice to have the Wild back; it should be here Tuesday - Wednesday.

That's a lot at 30 yards. Adjusting gun fit to correct that would have you looking crooked down the barrel. Is the barrel bent?

That is what I was wondering when he said that.

It was at 15 yards not 30 and the barrel doesn't appear to be bent. When I took the pad off and shot it Saturday I did better. I plan on patterning both guns of sand bags today to see how much of it is me (mentally), how much is fit and how much is the gun.

I would like to keep and shot both guns better, but I'm not so attached to them that I will keep them otherwise. I have other guns I like and shoot much better.

Range update after firings both guns off a sandbag with the target at 15 yards:

The Mears, using 2 rounds of ARMAUSA (1 oz #7.5's @ 1170) delivered consistent, centered patterns, which suggests that the lack of drop at the comb and heel is at fault. (Or I am)

The Greener: 2 rds of Federal Top Gun (1 oz of #7.5's. I didn't have the box to determine muzzle velocity, but I'm guessing about 1200 fps)) patterned down around 4:30 on the target; 2 rounds of Fiocchi (1 oz #8's @1250) hit dead center with the wad punching a hole about 3" to the right of the charge. I ordered a case of Fiocchi 1 oz #8's @1250. I'll see how that works.

A visit to a shooting school would be my first port of call . Some one to analyse your gun fit , stance and mount as well as your sight problem . Without seeing you in real life any other suggestion is just that , a suggestion that will not get to the root cause of your problem .The answer could be a quite simple stock adjustment or alteration to your shooting style . But finding the answer is key .

Thanks. For the Mears, I think there is just not enough drop at the comb and heel for me. I have other guns that do fit me much better that I shoot fairly well if I pay attention to what I am doing.

I shot the Greener much better yesterday and the misses were definitely my fault.

Use strips of 1/8” foam meat tray attached with double sided tape to get the cheek weld you want
Cover with Dr Scholl’s moleskin

Easy, and reversible.

You described your use as pre-mount games,

Setting up where you feel the butt in your shoulder pocket, and a cheek weld that puts your eye centered on the rib, is quite easy.

Much harder when shooting dynamic games.

cheap ego massage...

at expense of fine guns...

could be considered as criminal behavior...

I am somewhat surprised that the fit issue is "not enough drop", but I am unfamiliar with a Mears and the Martini-Henry, I know only by the action, but I believe both are European, and that may account for higher combs on older guns. It has been my experience that too much drop is the issue, but that is with American guns. Shaving the combs might get you what you need, but modifying those guns to shoot them more may run into durability issues after the fit is accomplished. You may find it difficult to buy a durable gun with enough drop, modern guns being higher in the comb, especially those of Asian make. A older Wingmaster might give you an affordable and workable option.

He said he shoots trap and skeet (generally pre-mount games), and rarely hits 50% with these guns.
He shoots left handed with right handed guns.

There has to be aiming error, and in-effective technique involved, not just gun fit.

The angles and leads of American skeet are well known. Sight pictures get memorized.

People shoot high scores from the hip as example.

Many people cover up aiming error with heavy loads of small shot and choke boring.

All of which complicates building a good consistent score across the gauges.

I generally fuss with the comb at face and cheek using removable foam.
Then start at the shoulder pocket as an anchor point for pre-mount games. The foam sets the cast, and eye alignment.
If you build the foam up to get 50/50 vertical patterns, then the misses are errors along the flight line, ahead or behind.
You can push the barrels left or right by adding or subtracting a piece of material.

If your pattern board alignment is 50/50 concentric, then it’s your foot placement and swing.

In a 12, you don’t have to be that close at 22 yards on a skeet field to get a break.
But you need to see a site picture where you are in front.
On the in-comer’s taking them well out is a cheap fix for low 1, low 2, high 6, and 7.
Bigger pattern when shot from across the field. Covers up aiming error.

Presuming one uses the standard maintained lead method. And starts ahead to stay ahead until the site picture and swing position connect.

I once owned a Boswell BLNE, Pigeon gun. It came out of Australia.
I couldn't hit a thing with it.
Off to the pattern board to see what was up.
Both barrels were regulated for 18" high.
Think box birds, aim at the bird, the rise is built in.
I sold it to a clays shooter that had Briley add chokes, to fix the built in rising pigeon chokes

I should have kept it.

Joe

Worst possible advice. There is no way to build hitting consistency with several guns when they all fit you differently.

Yep.

While I don't doubt there are some issues on my end including aiming, I do have other English guns which I run high teens to low twenties shooting skeet.

I don't hunt, I'm not a collector and I get bored shooting the same gun every weekend. I shoot skeet for fun and to justify buying British shotguns. I'm pretty sure I've sorted out the issues with the Greener, it seems to like Fiocchi 1 oz #8 @1250 FPS. Those patterned much better than the Federal Top Gun. I think I've figured out the Mears, I need to get it higher in my shoulder. Hopefully that works, otherwise I'll probably sell the gun. And yes I know I should stick with just one gun.

I have had left eye dominance issues since I started shooting. At first Rather than trying to radically change a gun, we tried to change the dominance. The order of solutions follows:

1. White dot sticker in the middle left shooting glass lens, it helped some getting my Skeet in the upper teens and lower twenties. (Other variations included inking the mark on with a felt marker, using vaseline or suntan lotion to grease the lens.

2. 20 years later I was going for contacts after getting bifocals, the recommended solution was left eye reading, right eye distant, this seemed about the same in effect as the blurred eye approach. I basically blundered into this one, but it worked ok.

3. After a gun fitting I had a gun massively bent in cast (3/4 in), This resulted in deadly field shooting, though not a great clays difference, save near targets. From then on I started to focus on guns with extreme cast as I seem to shoot them better.

4. I purchased a Churchill with over 1 in cast at comb, still wearing the bifucal contact set up, deadly successful in the field averaging over 75%, but only the lower 20’s in skeet, finally ran a 25 straight one time.

5. The future, who knows, but one day when a true crossover stock purchased from Holts finally gets here to test

Glad it worked out for you.

I work in Niantic occasionally.
Any places near there to shoot?

Not sure you were asking, there is a Niantic in CT and Illinois, as well as some other states.

By Groton, on the Niantic river.
I’ll be there part of Oct into early Nov.

Here is a partial list:
Ledyard Sportsman club: Not open to the public
Norwich Fish and Game Association: Does not appear to be open to the public
Niantic Sportsmen's Club: Does not appear to be open to the public

Quaker Hill Rod and Gun Club in Montville open to the public on Sundays https://quakerhillrodandgunclub.org/skeet-range.aspx

I'm in central CT and don't know much about the clubs down by Groton. Check to see if they are open to the public. I am normally at Manchester Sportsmen's in Coventry every Sunday.

http://ctskeet.com/where-to-shoot-skeet-in-connecticut
https://ctguns.org/t/list-of-connecticut-shooting-ranges-and-clubs/580
https://www.shooting.org/ranges/connecticut

I'm sure you are aware of this, but better safe than sorry: You can not buy ammo in CT with a CT Ammo Permit, Hunter's license or CT Pistol permit. https://legalclarity.org/interstate-gun-laws-in-connecticut-what-you-need-to-know
I would strongly recommend NOT going into Massachusetts or RI with a gun in the car.

Try some advice that works. Yardley is as good as anyone and far better than most. The no BS approach.

http://positiveshooting.com/GunFittingP1Main.html