doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Reloading problem

I need some input on a reloading problem. I reload 6mm Remington for one of my rifles (Ruger 77, MkII), and in my last two batches of 20 cartridges I had a few that were difficult to chamber. Each time, out of 20 cartridges maybe 5 were hard to close the bolt on. Some almost wouldn't close, and others were just slightly tight. The basic steps in my reloading process are: 1. Decap; 2. Collet sizing die (sizes only the cartridge neck); 3. Dead length bullet seater die; 4. Factory crimp die. All of the dies are Lee brand.

My brass has been reloaded about 3 times, and I annealed the necks after the second reloading. My loads aren't especially hot, kind of mid-range according to the manual. I'm thinking maybe the shoulders of the cases are stretching and causing the tight chambering. Following that line of thought, perhaps I need a full length re-sizing die. ??? I welcome input from others on this. Thanks!

From my experience, you are doing everything right. It sounds like your cases are elongating with the shoulders moving forward which suggests full length resizing is needed.

Are all your cases the same manufacturer? I had a similar issue once and every case was a different maker that gave me issues.

All of my cases are either Federal or Remington. I experienced it once with Federal and once with Remington.

Try chambering your neck-sized cases before adding powder and bullet?

I've reloaded a lot of 6 mm Rem and always used a set of old C&H .244 Rem neck sizing dies that belonged to my Dad. I never had any problem with simply neck sizing, and have reloaded brass to the point where I scrapped it after seeing neck cracks after perhaps 8 reloadings. None of my 6 mm brass has ever been full length resized, and my Dad never full length sized any brass he used in his .244 Rem which is the same cartridge. The shoulders can only stretch as much as the chamber will permit, and immediately upon firing, they should retract or spring back a very small amount which will allow easy chambering next time. Is extraction normal? Have you tried rechambering the empties after firing, but before resizing? You might try smoking the neck and shoulder area to see where contact is occurring with your reloads.

I also never crimped my bullets when reloading the 6 mm. Neck sizing tension was always more than adequate. But I noticed that case length must be identical to get good crimps when I reload for my .45-70. Is it possible your crimping is creating a very slight buckling of the case/shoulder juncture with some cases?

I do want to ask why you annealed the case necks after only two reloadings? I typically don't see any neck cracks developing until cases have been reloaded 7 or 8 times, and my groundhog loads are fairly warm.

Did you trim the cases back to length?

Great input from everyone here. Yes, I trimmed the cases to length. I annealed them just to be on the safe side. I have not tried chambering a fired case, but I will. Extraction has generally felt normal, but I haven’t paid close attention. I’ll pay closer attention going forward. Thank you to everyone for the input, super helpful as always.

The most likely reason has not been named.
Brass flow from body to shoulder and to inside of case neck. During bullet seating, this inside donut is being pressed outside, and obstructs.
Remedy: inside neck reaming after resizing the case.

Carcano

Could your factory crimp die be bumping up the neck just behind the neck?

Try chambering before applying the factory crimp and after, to see if there is any difference?

I tried a few things this evening, and I think I found the problem -- the shoulders are expanded on the problem cartridges. Here's a picture of one, and where the arrow points you can see a slight swelling. This one is from a previous batch of Federal cases, and the bolt would not even close on this one. I measured the outside diameter of the shoulder on this one, and it was 0.4400 inches. Another cartridge that the bolt would close on was 0.4345 inches. I also chambered many fired cases, and all of them chambered just fine. In addition, I measured the neck diameter of the functional and non-functional cartridges, and the necks were a consistent diameter. So now it seems the problem is the shoulder diameter, and the problem appears to come from my reloading process. I hope to reload more cartridges in the coming week, and I'll try to identify what step in the process is creating the problem. Again, I appreciate everyone's help.

That is because you have too much crimp on that bullet! You are pushing the neck back and causing that protrusion on the shoulder.

Dispense with the crimp altogether, it isn’t necessary. Full length resize, seat the bullet to the correct depth and your cartridge should chamber fine. The correct depth isn’t necessarily to the cannular in the bullet. Set your bullet depth to where your bullet is about .030 inches back from the rifleing…

Your seating die is set too low and pushing the shoulder back as you seat your bullets. Raise the die up and then turn the seating pin down to get the bullet depth back. You're over crimping the necks and that's pushing the shoulders back.

I believe the issue is with a stuck or sticking collet die. I’ve had this happen ( shoulder bulge) when trying out a set of .308 collet dies. Try cleaning and lubing.

Whatever it is, that is way too much crimp. I never crimp bottleneck cartridges bullets for a bolt rifle until you're getting into big magnum or Nitro Express cartridges..

I suggest you trim the cases; I agree that you don't need to crimp the bullets, but if you do and have the crimp correctly set and the case stretches, what you experienced will be the result. That is the very reason I adjust all my sizing dies to "kiss" the shoulders and not set them back.
Mike

Hearing that you were using the factory crimp die had me fairly convinced that was the cause of your chambering problem, which is why I suggested running fired cases through your rifle before doing any sizing or other operations. Hearing that all of your fired cases chambered just fine, and seeing the photo of the loaded cartridge makes me 100% convinced.

That is wayyyy too much crimp, and as I said, none is really necessary in a 6 mm Rem. Even when I do use a crimp on cartridges such as .357 mag, .44 mag, .45-70, etc., I use a much lighter crimp to hold the bullet in place because excessive crimping works the case neck far too much, leading to premature neck splitting and short case life. And as you have seen, once that crimp has a death grip on the bullet cannelure before seating is 100% complete, the only thing that will move is the neck and shoulder of your brass... leading to buckling or bulging. You don't need to smoke the cases to see it in your example. A firm crimp supposedly helps with consistent ignition with some pistol powders, but again, too much crimp is working the brass too much.

If you have a few loaded shells that won't chamber at all, you may be able to carefully roll them between two smooth pieces of steel to work the bulged area down just enough to permit chambering. They will then fire-form to your chamber, and will then fit perfectly. No need at all for full length resizing if the cartridges will be used in the same rifle. Neck size only for best accuracy and long case life.

Don’t you guys read what is already posted before you comment?



I load by the 10’s of thousands and it isn’t a guess at what the problem is!

Yeah, I do. So, are we to be impressed with your accumulated mess?

In this case I didn't. So what do you want from me now?

Nothing, do you read the instructions on your pill bottles before you take your medication?

Not when it's the same medication I've been taking for 15 years.

Seems like you've really got your panties in a twist over this. I'm done with it.

A simple question turned into a whirlpool of emotions.

Sorry for the derailment, but I wanted the OP to understand I know what I’m talking about even if Heckle and and Jeckle don’t agree…

As stated, crimp step not needed in most bolt action cartridges without significant recoil.
I use the Lee Factory Crimp die but ONLY on lever action cartridges with older tubular magazines: the 348 WCF, 33 WCF, and 45 -70 in Winchester 1886 and early Model 71 rifles.
The Lee FCD must be used carefully, regardless.

RCBS dies used on 90% of my reloading from 270WCF through 375 H&H, up to 450 Alaskan.
The Lee FCD in 450 Alaskan is rare and requires careful adjustment-but it really works well, as the 450 Alaskan cartridge generates substantial recoil in a lever action Model 71 with 400 gr bullets.

I really appreciate all the helpful input here. I'm certainly over applying the factory crimp die. I'm going to try some without crimping the neck. Keith, I appreciate your suggestion to try rolling the cartridges between two pieces of steel to try and get them to fit. I tried that, and I was able to reduce the diameter some, but ultimately I could not get them to chamber. I need to purchase a bullet puller to re-do these cartridges and a few other problematic ones I've acquired over the years. I'll start a new thread asking for input on bullet pullers and recycling components. Again, thanks everyone for the helpful input.

earlyriser,
I answered your posting on bullet pullers. The older cartridges' powder should be kept separate. If the older cartridges are differing calibers, that speaks for an inertia puller.
Mike

Today I used the full length sizing die, and then tried chambering the cases in the rifle. They chambered perfectly. I'll soon reload them and fire them so they will be fire-formed again. Thank you again to everyone who helped me work through this. I learned a lot!

Going forward, I'd suggest neck sizing only, so long as the cartridges will be used in just one rifle. Your brass will last longer, and you may see smaller groups as well. Best of luck.

I have neck sized cartridges for bolt action rifles and low pressure single shot rifles but had chambering issues with double rifles and those singleshot rifles firing high pressure loads.

earlyriser the OP is reloading for a Ruger M77 Mk II in 6 m/m Remington. That's a bolt action, so he shouldn't have any problems with chambering neck sized shells that had already been fire formed to his chamber.

The chambering issues you had in your double rifles and single shots most likely stems from the fact that they don't have the camming force a bolt action rifle does when chambering a round.

In situations like that, sometimes you can get some of the benefits of neck sizing by adjusting full length sizing dies to just short of kissing the shoulder, so there is no shoulder set-back, and are only partially sizing the case body. It's commonly advised to always full length resize cases for dangerous game hunting, because you don't want any chambering issues when a big grizzly bear is rushing to feed on you.

851c,
While it is easy to confuse the two, Keith's "fix" is likely correct with one small exception (from me). Neck sizing is performed with a die that is dimensioned to only size the neck area and not the body. Partial sizing is often confused with neck sizing, indeed many of us often speak of partial sizing as if it is neck sizing. I habitually partially size most of my handloads, especially those in rimmed or belted cases. This is performed with full length sizing dies, adjusted so as to fully resize the neck only and not set the shoulder back. In this process the shoulder's diameter is slightly reduced, while not measurably setting it back. The purpose of this is to prevent or significantly reduce case loss by head separation through stretching (note: improperly adjusting many neck sizing dies can also result in setting the neck back). In opposition to the advice to always full length resize cases for dangerous game hunting, test chambering all cartridges intended for hunting dangerous game (whether factory, handloaded in new cases, or handloaded in fired cases) will avoid chambering issues.
It might benefit the discussion to describe how partial sizing is accomplished. One method is to smoke (or mark with felt tip pen) the neck and shoulder of a case that was fired in the rifle and slowly adjust the die downward until the neck is fully sized and the shoulder is just "kissed" (smoke barely touched).The smoke on the body/shoulder will usually be removed, indicating a reduction of diameter, there.
If this is confusing, I apologize in advance.
Mike

In some instances if I have a die set with larger body, but same size neck I use that die to neck size. It does the job great without contacting the body of the case. But I also do as mentioned and back my die off one full turn to size the neck, and it doesn't touch the body usually. I've smoked cases to check this, and one turn works for most cases to only neck size.

Mike is right, and I should have mentioned that you can partial neck size or even partial size body and neck with a full length sizing die. But a neck sizing die is just that.

I've been reloading my 6 m/m Rem. using the same old C&H .244 Remington Neck sizing dies my dad used. Most here know they are one and the same case, and only the factory rifling twist was different. I never owned a 6 m/m full length sizing die, and never needed one. I've reloaded my brass to the point where I started to see necks cracking, and discarded it, but it still never needed the body sized. If I ever bought some used brass that had been fired in a different rifle, it's entirely possible it wouldn't chamber well in my rifle after neck sizing only.

The one complete head separation I had with a .22-250 that blinded me for roughly half an hour happened after I reloaded some very used brass that had been fired in a different rifle which had less headspace. I was in my 20's and had bought a .22-250 on a VZ 24 Mauser action. A friend gave me his old .22-250 brass and a set of dies. I had set up the sizing dies to just kiss the shoulder of that old brass, but didn't know it was still short for the chamber of my new gun. It showed bad primer flattening on the first two shots which alarmed me... but not enough to quit and find out why. I decided to fire one more, and all hell broke loose, and it felt like Mike Tyson punched me in both eyes. In an instant, I was totally blind.

I learned in a big hurry that correct sizing and properly setting up dies is super critical. Neither me or the rifle suffered permanent damage, but if you'd seen the brass and burned powder particles embedded around my eyes, you'd know I was extremely lucky. The shock of the blast must have shut down my optic nerves. I also later learned that Paul Mauser had redesigned the 98 Mauser bolt shroud to deflect gasses around a shooters eyes in the event of a rupture. He did good!