doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Armstrong Co.

I have an Armstrong Co. 2 1/2" 12 ga boxlock that appears to have been only lightly used. Are there telltale signs to look for that would indicate refinishing? The case colors I'd say are 40 to 50%. The stock has minimal handling marks and the gluing I'd say is 60% or better.

https://ibb.co/604jT79W
https://ibb.co/93SxtV42
https://ibb.co/20L0Nh1D
https://ibb.co/ymRVyq61

Fixed it for you.







Would appear to have had a couple of trips through the proof house. Hard to buy an English gun that hasn’t seen some refinishing work, the climate is tough on guns.

Best,
Ted

For starters, it appears the Damascus barrels have been blued over without any etching done to enhance the Damascus pattern.

Seems it was common practice for the English take their guns to the Maker after each season for a strip and clean and touch up.
Nice boxlock , shoot it well.

Odds are good its been refinished.

The PC in the date code = reproof in 1989.

Look for how proud the metal is of the wood...each refinish takes it down a bit.

Refinished is good...there's little benefit to original condition. I'd rather have a refinished gun than a safe queen. There's virtually no stigma for refinishing English or European guns like there is for US guns, thank goodness.

If the barrels needed re-proof after fine boring it would be likely that they would be re-blacked at the same time, particularly when the cost of re-blacking a boxlock was not so disproportionate as it is now.

Does the maker’s name address on the rib show signs of the rib having been re-polished?

Nice gun thats been refinished long ago when it was worth doing from financial point of view. It's good time to be around if one wants to get quality for low price. Most old Birmingham and provincial British doubles now compete with lower field grade Ithacas, LC Smith, A.H. Fox,.... doubles.

As Geoff observed, it was reproved in 89' under the 1954-1989 Rules. 3 Tons is for a max. service pressure of about 9000 psi
Original bores were 13/1 = .719" to .728". At reproof R .728" and L .732" so likely not much honing.
Are the chambers still 2 1/2"?

Why would that be? I’ve had a few safe queens pass through my hands, still have a few, they all worked and looked as the manufacturer intended.

Best,
Ted

For me it's no big deal to tidy up a gun. I have most of mine touched up in some way or another.
Seems I have found most collectors of American fine guns prefer original condition where collectors of English guns may choose to have some re-blacking done or the wood and checkering touched up.
Main thing is whoever does it is competent and knows how to do it correctly.

The only downside is one has to use specialized shells in it that won't be available in the boonies. County Walmarts tend to have more robust inventories than those in cities so one might find extra light target loads, however, shot size will be US 7.5 or smaller.

You left out the best part Ted!



Ted, I'm afraid we both somehow clicked on something that led us through an internet portal to a bizarre alternate universe.

In this bizarro world, refinished guns are valued more than safe queens, or even New-in-Box specimens...

Buffed and well circulated coins are valued more than uncirculated MS-70 Proof coins...

Cancelled Postage Stamps are worth more than the same stamp in new unhinged condition...

A collector car with Bondo and fresh paint covering decades of rust and abuse is worth much more than an extremely low miles vehicle that has been carefully stored and preserved...

In this wacked-out alternate universe where everything you thought you knew is wrong, 25% Biden Inflation is much better for the economy than much lower Trump Inflation. Women happily shop for old broken-in shoes at Goodwill because they are prettier and cheaper. Radical Muslims with Nukes make the world safer. And anti-Gun Democrats are supported by gun owners because we don't really need Gun Rights to own and shoot guns....

And that old out of date Cottage Cheese in the back of your refrigerator.... just scrape the green mold off the top and eat it because everyone knows it's better than the fresh new carton.

Can't make this shit up, but it's where we're at. This has given me a headache, so I'm going to take a couple Tylenol that expired in 1990, and hope for the best.

Because I buy things to use them, not to just look at them. YMMV - that's why I stated what I'd rather have instead of proclaiming what everyone should do.

The chambers are still 2 1/2". I like the 2 1/2" 12 shell. I do plan to shoot and enjoy this gun. I don't own any safe queens, but that's just me. They all get shot with proper loads.

I buy them to use them as well. I also like to use a gun that is in fantastic condition, and given the option would take the safe queen every time.

Help me to understand the notion the refinished gun is somehow preferable to have and use over the gun that lived in its box for the entire time prior to it becoming available.



Prandelli & Gasperini 20 gauge boxlock non ejector, 3” chambers, built to the notions of one Francis E. Sell circa 1967, in regards to bore dimensions, chambers and chokes. It never saw the light of day until I owned it. Not refinished.




1920 vintage Halifax Darne, 12 gauge, wearing most of its original bone case colors. Choked IC/IMOD, luscious 28” tubes at .050 wall just about everywhere. Not refinished. No need, it lived in a closet for 90 bird seasons.




1960 Vintage V19 28 gauge, sitting on the box it spent 55 years in. I actually had Geoffroy put a checkered ebony buttplate and a sling on the gun, identical to what was optionally available when it was new. The work is flawless, and Geoffroy actually laid a bit of engraving on the butt stock fitting, matching the work from when the gun was new, something he was the very best at. Wish I shot this one better, it is a joy to carry and handle. But, even if I send it down the road, it will bring more than a refinished Darne.



1938 vintage Ithaca Lefever Nitro Special, 16 gauge, 26” CYL/MOD chokes factory 2 3/4” chambers. The barrels had some furry rust on them, after I won the day with a $257 bid. I had the barrels blued, polishing them to about 400, which, would have been correct for that era. The colors are vibrant and the wood is superb. A little bit refinished, but, few would know. I use it with heavy metal in an area that requires non toxic shot. I like the fact my non toxic shot gun is almost 90 seasons young. Contrast the colors on this one to anything Nitro Special ed has posted for sale in the last two decades.



Can’t help but wonder why someone would prefer a gun in lesser condition to own and keep.

But, here we are.

Best,
Ted

Have, not buy.

I'm delighted to buy a gun that was a safe queen.


1974 Fabrique Nationale A2

Then use them.

I don't own any safe queens.

I like high condition guns and own quite a few, that said I completely see the advantage of buying a gun that is in excellent mechanical condition with some refinish work done for a lower dollar.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Yep. Seems simple to understand. Dunno what the hullabaloo is all about.

The typical game of "got ya" played on this board, certain people like to analyse others every post, try to find a vulnerability and then exploit it, claiming other posters are ignorant, stupid or not ideologically pure enough. It has been going on for quite some time, standing up to those weak minded individuals is usually reward by have your posts delayed.

There is no way that in my 30's I could have put the funds together for my Holland if it had been pristine, it isn't, I was able to swing it and it has made me a superb field gun, without so much as a hiccup.

There isn’t really any hullabaloo.

Your initial statement was you would rather have a refinished gun. Yes, there came many weasel words after that, and you never really did answer the actual question as to why the hell you, or, anyone else would prefer a refinished gun to a safe queen, a gun we would assume to be in pristine, unused condition.

A refinished gun ends up that way because the finish went away. A safe queen is that way because somebody didn’t put it to use, and saw that it was well kept. You actually said, without any qualifiers, that you prefer the former. The OP was looking for signs of refinish for the same reason we all do-it is a huge signpost that said gun may have lived a hard life, perhaps had modifications, or will have undue wear or problems that need to be addressed after purchase, on his dime.

It is, in fact, the clearest indicator of the need for the buyer to beware.

Best,
Ted

Ted nailed it. Especially the part about the use of "Weasel Words" that were used to explain away a positively silly statement.

Nothing was said about saving money by buying a gun that had been refinished, or even one that was cheap because it needed TLC or refinishing. Nothing was said about the fact that the cost of professional refinishing often cannot be recovered , which may make a properly refinished gun a good deal for a buyer.

Leave it to the Liberal Left Princess Stevie to come up with silly excuses and qualifiers for the simple statement that clearly stated a preference for a refinished gun versus a closet queen. As we so often see here, Closet Liberal birds of a feather flock together.

That's a lot of "Hullabaloo" when it would have been far better to admit the statement in question was wrong. Of course, that involves the ability to admit being wrong.

It's especially amusing to see Princess Stevie once again crying about Moderation and having Posts delayed. It is ROTFLMAO amusing when you consider that she herself was a big proponent of Moderation, before she became subject to it. I'm sure she would still love it if it only affected Conservatives. She is actually blaming that situation on standing up to the so-called gotcha game where Posts are scrutinized and analyzed for any possible mistake or error. But Princess Stevie has a long history of doing exactly that herself. One quick example is all of the times she mocked me for suggesting Oatey No. 95 as a solder flux because it is a corrosive flux. Even after she was informed that many gunmakers used corrosive solder flux, and it was fine so long as any residue was neutralized, she still clinged to that gotcha moment. Analyzing Posts for gotcha moments hardly compares to the Internet Doxxing of members that Princess Stevie has done, or spending hours doing Internet searches of her enemies here. And she certainly spends a lot of time trying to push her own Liberal idealogical purity on a firearms forum, an insane idea that says anti-gun Democrats are the better choice, when nothing could be more absurd for gun owners.

Goodness Ted, if I only bought and shot safe queens I would have missed out on lots of fun with some great guns. The man stated that HE prefers refinished guns, maybe it is a cost savings, maybe he feels like he isn't putting use on a collectable when he doesn't need to, maybe HIS choices are different from yours. Why do YOU care about what HE likes to shoot?

Karen,
I know how you live for the back and forth petty arguments, sorry to disappoint you, this will be my last post on this thread.

The man said what he prefers, that should be enough. Why should he justify his reasons for you and Ted? He needs no qualifiers, those are his opinions. Some guys like blondes, I prefer brunettes. So what?

I have no issues with my status on the board and having my posts delayed, it's Dave's sandbox and he can run it as he sees fit.

Unlike an inexperienced troll such as yourself Karen, I have formed my opinions on corrosive and rosin fluxes over a couple of decades of experience soldering ribs, fore end lugs, sight bases, sling swivel bases etc. I stand by my comments, learn to use rosin flux and there is no need for corrosive flux and the extra step of neutralizing. I tend to lean towards traditional methods in my restoration work.

Your vote is your choice, just like my vote is my choice. Don't like it Karen? I can send you a very, very tiny box of sand for you to pound if you like. I still have your address, or did you move out of your mom's basement? Maybe into the garage? All this dredging up the past makes one wonder, are you still hacking the PC's of members of this forum? Ah, the doxxing days, good times and fine memories.

Enough rolling in the mud for now Princess Karen.

PS, I sent you a PM the other day and you didn't respond. It seems your box is full again

All my best.
Steve

Yawn.

Yes, what I wrote wasn't terribly clear, but I explained.

...move on.

Yes, my post could have been clearer. But I explained, with no "weasel words."

Time to let it go...

Princess Stevie, I am replying to your stupidity, point-by-point. The only reason we have "back-and-forth petty arguments" is because you have an insatiable need to demonstrate your foolishness.

Your new boyfriend TransGomer Joff made a totally absurd statement concerning preferring a refinished gun over a closet queen, and both Ted and I questioned and commented on it. That's what happens all the time on these forums, whether you like it or not. If someone had confronted me or Ted after making a similar dumb statement, you would not only have no problem with it, but you'd likely join in. Deal with it.

You say you have no issues with being subject to Post Moderation and having your posts delayed... yet you keep whining and crying about it. And if you really respected how Dave runs his BBS, you wouldn't use it as a venue to run your inappropriate Free Tagline Advertising of your For-Profit business ventures. But you still refuse to even say whether you have been paying Dave the $12.00 fee he requests for each and every sale resulting from your Free Advertising. So much for claiming to respect Dave!

I am not employed as a gunsmith, but I too have done a good deal of soldering various items. Considering you farm-out work to others, and I do my own work, I've likely done much more soldering, brazing, and welding than you. I learned that there are many different fluxes for various processes and solder alloys. I also learned that soldering flux containing zinc chloride or ammonium chloride like the Oatey No. 95 has been used by gunsmiths and gun makers for well over a century, and is just as "traditional" as rosin flux. Oatey No. 95 also does a better job of tinning than any other flux I've used, and I've obviously used more than you. The extra step of neutralizing is no big deal, and even rosin flux leaves some residue that may need cleaned up in visible areas. The extra time needed is far less than the considerable time you waste here Trolling your Trump Derangement Syndrome and support for anti-gun Democrats.

Insofar as to your claim about leaning toward "traditional methods" in your restoration work, I'll just say the Daly's Pro-Fin you say you prefer for stock finishing is hardly a traditional slacum. Just more B.S. and lies from you.

My vote is my choice, and unlike you, I choose to vote for candidates who understand and respect the clear language of our 2nd Amendment. My Mom died years ago, and you know I never lived in her basement. You did enough internet searches of me to go to my County Auditors website to learn whose name is on my deed. I also did not move across the country to BrokeBack Mountain Colorado, like you did to hide your gender bender lifestyle from your family. You still claim that I have hacked the PC's of members of this forum. That is illegal, of course, so why have you not had me arrested? Your gutless doxxing was intended to intimidate me and drive me away. How's that working out for you crybaby?

Aren't you glad you resorted to some more rolling in the mud Princess Stevie? Now how about finally answering the $12.00 fees to Dave question. It may be the million dollar question before you grow a pair and fess up.

P.S.--- I did clear one PM from my Messages to make room for a PM from any normal heterosexual member, and it took you a few weeks to notice, and send me another PM. Of course, I did not open it or respond... same as always. If you have anything to say to me, you should say it here in the open forum, because you cannot be trusted.

P.S.S-- You worry about the small extra step of neutralizing flux residue, yet you somehow have the time to keep sending me dozens of vulgar Spam PM's, knowing I don't even open your messages. And you always have time to roll in the mud. How is it that you have time for stupidity, but don't have time for cleaning a little residue of a better performing flux? In my opinion, you are just a closet Democrat fraud and troll.