doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com another gun fit point of impact ?

So a friend let me shoot his CSM 21, I think hoping I would buy it. At first look it seemed perfect for what I wanted a heavy 20 ga target gun. 30" barrels, well balanced, good stock dimensions for me. It seemed like I was looking right down the rib. Should be perfect. I tried it and couldn't hit with it, 10 out of 30 targets. I patterned it as best I could without a plate, just put up a piece of cardboard against a tree. It seems more than 50% of pattern is below point of aim. I have a laser tool for testing poi and tried it when home and it seems if I mount the gun but leave my head more erect the pattern is about 60/40. I have wanted a 30" barreled 20 ga over 7 lbs for clays but not sure I want to try and adapt my shooting style. I am open to advice. The gun is a fancy Grade 5, but that doesn't hit clays.

You have wisely taken advantage of an opportunity to try out a gun before buying it, which most don't get a chance to do. Having found it unsuitable, trust your judgment, count your blessings, and pass on it.

If you are “looking right down the rib” it should put up to 50% of the pattern below the POI. Some folks like that.

For some reason that does not make sense to me 30” M21’s 20 gauges always seem to shoot lower than expected. I’ve owned several and they all did. It’s even mentioned in the m21 book. The factory barrel makers called it “putting up” the barrels which was an acceptable way of saying bending them.

The good thing about a SXS is that you can get your head position well over the barrels and not lose “barrel reference” like you do with an O/U.

On any SXS I suggest very closely checking barrel convergence prior to buying. It’s amazing how many do not shoot to the same point.

I was told by a very knowledgeable, old time SXS competition shooter that Winchester chokes were always on the open side so that differences in barrel impacts were harder to detect. Example, Winchester full choke in a m21 12 ga were .031-.033 where as a Browning of the same vintage is often over .040.

A number of years ago I had CSM make me a 21 two barrel set. A 20/28 gauge set. I could not hit the side of the barn with the 20 gauge set. I sold it.

a solution to the problem you describe is to move your grip on the forend back a bit...that will make the gun shoot higher for you...

Can you explain how that works?

I can deal with a gun that shoots high - at least a little.

A gun that shot low would be a hard no for me, regardless of how pretty it was, or how well it fit the rest of specs.

50/50 is "shooting flat". You said that it seemed to print a bit more than 50% under POA. That's not good. I love a gun that shoots 60/40 (60% of the pattern above the POA). For my shooting style that works very, very well. I refuse to shoot a gun that patterns higher than 70/30, which would require "floating the bird" above the muzzle to some degree. That is not good for consistently good shooting either, as the amount you have to float it changes as the distance to the bird changes. Please keep in mind that I am excluding the game of trap from this conversation, in which a "built in lead" is desired by most, as the birds are all rising.

The simplest solution to make it pattern a little higher is to build up the comb a bit, where your cheek contacts the comb (DAC). That is very easy to do with moleskin, which can be layered to build it up incrementally.

What ed good suggested may actually work, as it lessens the leverage against the gun's muzzle flip. However, I don't like the idea of making myself to fit the gun. . . . much better to make the gun to fit me. When you have to remember to grip this gun here, and the next gun there, it's just not a good recipe for sustainable success with a shotgun .

Richard Hale's first reply above is excellent, and very well said, with much truth.

richard, basic geometry...

by moving the forend hand rearward...

you are increasing the angle of the barrels...

thus, making the gun shoot higher...

conversely, by moving the forend hand forward...

you are reducing the angle of the barrels...

thus, making the gun shot lower...

try it...

That is utter nonsense, and ignores the real reason that it can change POI.

What you are saying is that the hand position overrides the brain-to-muscle signals.

I could prove that to you on my 4' X 4' patterning plate, but you probably wouldn't acknowledge it if it hit you between the eyes.

Ok, someone had to say it and you did.👍

I couldn’t help but noticed that in one of George Digweed‘s “club Digweed”shooting videos, he specifically addresses hand position on the forend and how it effects swing speed perceived lead, and of course shot placement.

if I remember correctly Digweed advocates moving the hand back slightly to increase swing speed, not gun fit

I always like to point my index finger to the target, too.

jes try hit guys...

ifn hit works fur youse, den, great...

ifn knot, den put yo grubby paw back to ware hit wuz...

duh...

watt ah winey buncha ole bitches, sum ov youse is...

I’ve tried the leading hand position test by shooting multiple targets at various ranges and speeds. I’ve found that alternate positions from my standard leading hand position hasn’t proven to provide any significantly better target breaks or advantage in target acquisition. I do know that changing the leading hand position by more than a small amount feels awkward. I’m predominately a competitive shooter and I am comfortable with one leading hand position. I’ve shot low gun for at least the past 6-7 years to perfect my mount for FITASC events. I don’t want to change any hand position that could be detrimental to my mount.

I am 99.9% sure that moving the leading hand forward or back doesn’t change my POI.😁

I often wonder if some members on this board ever try to substantiate the theories that they present by real world testing.

Yes, and yes.

There is no question for me that the most consistent way to shoot a side-by-side that I have not had the stock altered on, is to shoot with my left arm, fully extended, and the fore end, laying in the palm of my left hand wherever it ends up.

If you think about the position of it all, it’s the only way to be consistent with rental guns or borrowed guns or shooting a variety of guns that a person may acquire with different stocks and forends.

Because the one thing that is consistent is where your palm is when you extend your arm fully straight out.

And if you watch enough shooting videos, you’ll know that that is a particular style taught in French and British shooting schools for the shooting of partridges with a side-by-side.

I too have my FITASC gun stocked to perfect my mount in competitions. It has to be.

Shooting driven birds with a borrowed shotgun, much less so.

CZ, did you actually ever try this?

It sounded a bit questionable to me, so I got up from the PC and grabbed an unaltered all original Syracuse Lefever 12 gauge that happened to be handy. This gun has an original Lefever splinter forend. I mounted the gun with my left arm fully extended.

My left palm ended up under the barrels, but completely forward of the forearm wood. The very tip of the forearm was above my wrist, close to where one would check their pulse.

What you advise might have worked if both of my arms were abnormally short... something like a Tyrannosaurus rex. But then I'd probably need a buttstock with about an 11 inch L.O.P. And the sleeves on all of my shirts and jackets would be much too long.

I confess, I don’t know how anyone can shoot consistently with the leading hand very near to the breach end of the forearm and supported by a U shaped opening of the thumb and index finger.
Yet I see it often. I think it may have carried over from shooting .22’s
I suggested to a fellow he might want to take a more substantial purchase with his hand gripping the forearm.
He tried about 4 shots and returned to his original method. I believe his pinky was stuck out as well like having afternoon tea.🤔

I agree, Ken. Here's what Rollin Oswald has to say about leading hand placement in his excellent book I referenced earlier.

"The best place to grip or hold the forearm is at or just forward of the mid-point of the angle formed by the elbow and upper arm, close to 90 degrees. This angle offers a good compromise between supporting the gun and preventing it's lagging behind during swings powered by body rotation (I.e., overcoming inertia)."

Ed's answer is a good example of armchair expert "advice". Oswald has been there and done it. Ken and I have, too.

Believe who you will.

Another tidbit from OIswald's book, concerning front hand placement.

"When a forearm is too short for the length of the arm, it will not feel proportional with the grip. The hand will have to be moved back with the arm likely to feel cramped. That will change the balance of the gun and will hamper smooth and accurate swings to targets. When it is not right, the ability to swing smoothly will be hampered."

Again, listen to armchair experts, or listen to those who know what they're talking about due to real life experience, like Oswald. Digweed is an expert, in his style of shooting. But, he is a really big man, and his leverage on a gun by moving his hand fore and aft, is different from mine. Or, probably yours. Oswald addresses the needs of the average shooter.

Gee Stan, I have been shooting shotguns since 1953..

how bout you?..

you sound like a shank too monious twit..

are you?

That's quite amazing, actually, that you could be so wrong about how to shoot well, after all those years.

You're proof that "live and learn" doesn't apply to everyone.

The left hand, commonly with the index finger as the indicator, is used as the pointer. You reach out and “touch” the front edge of the target, while the grip hand raises the gun to face.


I shoot a great deal Keith.
Clay and feathered.
Mostly with the shotgun started 10.5” below the crest of the shoulder, and not moving until the target is clearly seen in the air. Ken will understand that.

Shoot whatever shooting style you feel like.
If it keeps your club selling targets, fire away.

The extended forward arm is a traditional British thing BUT NOTE the head is well off the comb, possibly to compensate for the POI of SxSs which tends to be lower than a single barrel or O/U
According to ed's voodoo geometry, that should make the gun shoot even lower
"by moving the forend hand forward...
you are reducing the angle of the barrels...
thus, making the gun shot lower..."





OTOH, posture/mount/hand position is best left to what works. Some pretty good shooters at the 1896 GAH at Live Birds in various ready positions





"Blue Rock" Money using a hand guard



Athol Purdey at Monte Carlo

haw Stan...

your posts here regarding my shooting skills are...

to put it briefly, presumptively negative...

typical twit like behavior...

Preacher, I appreciate you posting a bunch of photos from your vast picture collection. Nice try. Again...

I am well aware of the shooting style where the shooter fully extends his arm, and his hand is then holding the barrels rather than the forend. And I wish I had a dollar for every time you Posted those very same photos here. You must find them especially fascinating.

However, in the very same photos you posted, only a couple of the shooters are using this arm fully extended mounting style. The majority clearly have their leading elbows bent, and they are gripping forend wood.

In addition, in CZ's Post I initially responded to, he clearly stated that with his arm fully extended, the forearm would end up laying in the palm of his hand. I called B.S. on that, and actually grabbed a stock unaltered Lefever and tried it. I felt that must indicate he has abnormally short arms, something like T-rex. You are tall and lanky, so I'd also assume the same would apply to you, unless you also have abnormally short arms.

Here, read it again Preacher... this time concentrating real hard on reading comprehension, rather than a gotcha moment that failed miserably.


In addition, when CZ replied, he suggested that "Ken would understand", however Ken made a reply where he said he had " suggested to a fellow he might want to take a more substantial purchase with his hand gripping the forearm."

Did you catch that????... "gripping the forearm"... almost like most firearms designers have apparently intended since they were building matchlocks. But there are no rules, and a shooter is free to place his leading arm anywhere.


That doesn't sound like Ken is advocating shooting with the arm fully extended, and leading hand way out on the barrels. If that works for you and CZ, that's just fine. Frankly, I'm surprised that CZ didn't tell us he routinely shoots 100 straights from the hip.

The proof is in the pudding. If it works, it works!

My goodness William. My post was clearly about the extended forward arm, and ed's claim. It had nothing to do with you.
Did you miss this? "posture/mount/hand position is best left to what works."

And I believe using pictures helps us understand. You'll note that "Blue Rock" and Athol's forward hand positions are the same, with the barrels in the palm. You can see in Athol's pic that requires significant supination (external rotation) of the wrist.

This is Robert Churchill, who was a short, stocky guy, with short arms; but his forward hand is also supinated



Fred Gilbert, one of the best American Live Bird and Inanimate Target shooters, with the same hand position. He is wearing a glove to protect his hand but later used a hand guard.



Jack Fanning was a stocky guy with short arms and he appears to have the FE resting in his palm

To add a bit of levity……. I reckon a fellows forward hand is resolved to one location….. should he be shooting a pump!😏

yawn...

Our mental midget misses a lot, usually intentionally, so it it can vomit insults, name calling and invective at people it has never met, but wants to hate, so it can feel better about itself.

I can't imagine being like that.

You will also notice that he is displaying a very modern gun mount and straight comb stock. My, my, my !


And, as usual, EG displays his formidable wealth of misinformation. I often wonder why he is entertained and encouraged.