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Bienvenue. It's always a pleasure to have a Belgian knowledgable of and interested in Belgian and German guns. Good luck with your research. C'est toujours un plaisir de rencontrer un Belge qui s'y connaît en armes belges et allemandes et qui s'y intéresse. Bonne chance dans vos recherches.

There are a few French speakers here and a few German speakers. Raimey has been looking at these questions - the relationship between German, Liège and Saint-Étienne gun makers for years and will enjoy having a new fellow-traveler.

We would like to see pictures of both gun and card. Thanks. (might that be the gun and card that Raimey posted?)

Last edited by Argo44; 07/28/26 09:38 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Originally Posted by MaitreLucius
I am very pleased to become a member of this community.

Willkommen in diesem Forum ! Du wirst feststellen, dass es - immer noch - einen kleinen und sehr kompetenten Anteil frankophiler Poster hier gibt, Fab500 und Argo44 haben sich ja schon gemeldet ... und auch ein paar deutschsprachige Freunde feiner älterer Waffen. Belgische Doppelbüchsen waren ja einmal vor 100 Jahren auch im äußersten Westen Deutschlands (Eifel) zu finden, häufig in seltenen Kalibern wie 9x57 R (so wie auch Deine Bockbüchsflinte) und .35 Winchester (eine schöne Patrone, die heute praktisch vergessen scheint).

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Thanks to Merkel, I was fortunate to receive a copy of the original factory work card (Gewehrkarte), which has revealed some fascinating details about this particular firearm. I have recently started a detailed research project on this Model 210 and hope to learn even more from the knowledgeable members here.

Paleographically, the card shows an interesting mix of Sütterlin and lateinische Schreibschrift. Much of it is well legible, some elements are a bit more tricky. One must keep in mind that also mixes of both elements were common, even from the same writing hand.

The original ordering buyer seem to have been "Magasins réunis" (note the correct plural, which was slightly misspelled in Suhl), a department store chain from the French Grand Est region. These also commonly used to have firarms & hunting section, what in the USA might have been called field sports (because fishing was always included). Who the individual customer "PB" was, is hard to find out after nearly 100 years, including one Great Depression and one World War. The Weltwirtschaftskrise had just started when the gun was ordered. And the mechanics worked also between Christmas and New Year. Overall production time for this custom ordered gun was 2 months. You can discern various hands (some not very talented nor careful !) working hastily on the cheap and at times shoddily executed engraving.

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The recent discovery of an ATM catalogue from 1950 by forum member Fab500 makes this question even more intriguing, as it suggests that the relationship between Merkel and ATM continued after the Second World War.

I suppose this is the collective reprint of multiple old catalogues that was recently published in France as an elenchus in bound book form, rather than one original catalogue? I strongly feel that the 1950 date was added (or chosen) by the editor.

Quote
The "ATM" and "Merkel Frères" markings were already specified on the factory work card, and the rifle barrel was regulated using French BN3F powder.

Hard to say. The card stipulates both a German and ("auch") a French propellant load. As it was common at the times, the card does not give bullet weight here, but bullet style and length. Whereas the proof houses used weight indications.

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I would be very interested to hear if other members have encountered Merkel firearms bearing distributor or retailer markings from other countries, or if anyone has documents, catalogues or factory records that could help shed more light on this fascinating chapter of Merkel's history.

The most knowledgeable scholar to answer this today must be Igor Karklinsh, at times also found in this forum. I think his nickname is or was Robertovich?

Aves mes salutations respectueuses,

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>>Anyways, the "normal issue ammunition" is 15 gram (232 grains) projectile with a muzzle energy of 630 m/s (2100 fps).
Propellants are 2.75 grams of either "J" powder or "BN3F".<<

The Gallopin' Bovine, WildCattle, posted some info on a Lebel loaded w/ Pulver BN3F.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...mp;Words=BN3F&Search=true#Post313457

Hause has posted some info on French Pulver too:

>>It seems likely that Belgian guns proved with French powders were done so at the request of the French dealer.<<

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=618064&page=2

But there is one that escapes me for a time, & it is that French Powder Dissertation by fabt500. I will keep searching for that.


Serbus,

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ellenbr Offline OP
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Ah, Hah, fab500's poudre contribution was embedded in Drew's thread:

Catalogue Verney-Carron 1901

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=609519&page=8

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
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MaitreLucius:

Did you drop in on Hendrik in Suhl just yet? Wolfgang is pulling on my arm to meet him there soon.

Marc, another Belgian contributor, should stop by I hope.


Hochachtungsvoll,

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Anyway, my intrest is piqued because the test powder load for the 9X57R were 3 g Rottweiler Blattpulver Nr. 5 &
auch mit französischem Pulver 3 g BN3F.

For now, Rottweiler Blattpulver Nr. 5 is my all time favourite poudre because a similar burn rate can be attained w/ VV N140(Vihtavuori) which makes it so much easier to replicate a load from the >>days of yore<< during the >>Golden Age of gunning<<.

So projecting, interpolating, extrapolating, etc., could one equate the Burn Rate of Französischem Pulver BN3F to Rottweiler Blattpluver Nr. 5, which then would allow Franzoesischem Pulver BN3F to be equated to VV N140?

Again, akin to Hause's Brainstormin', I assume the testing w/ French scattergun cartridges & Französischem Pulver BN3F to be 2 the request of the French Vendor.


Hochachtungsvoll,

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Raimey,
Your comments about the usefulness of an approximate equivalent powder for R5 are correct. In your search for an approximate equivalent for BN3F, It would be very helpful to all of us if you could find similar equivalents also for W 1919, W1920, and Tr 1910.
Mike

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Ford, sure I will accommodate you and put that on my to-do list; maybe when I have a little time to read a bit.....

Hochachtungsvoll,

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You could hire an Auburn grad to assist you in the reading. Oh ...wait. . .


Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Easy Now, we don't want to set Ford off as he is on Riverview Time..... But I think some Auburn Grads have worked on it, but never got out of the Gate well....


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
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