doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Joh. Springer's Erben - 1910 - 16 X 11.5mm(450 Cal

Mr. Neuberger gives that unequivocally that the J. Springer's Erben Kombo is a Morgenstern and that the serial number of 5069 is that of Morgenstern & mates quite nicely, for 1910, with Neuberger's Spring 2002 serial number list below:



With the close of WWII and the Communist takeover in February 1948, much info was lost to the ravages of time. ALL the gunshops under Communist Control were nationalized and mechanics could continue in their craft if they joined a cooperative. Should they chose otherwise, they were forced to manual labour, or lower level work, and if they continued to be obstinate, they were jailed as a gunsmith from Olomouc received a 17 year sentence and served 8 years before being released.

These Morgenstern Kombos of Vejprty/Weipert are the ideal platform for stalking, and harvesting, Roe-Deer and small sized game found in the hunting haunts of Central Europe. Few, if any, other platforms hold a candle to these Fantastic Weipert Beauties.

For the moment, how the Kombo migrated from 450 to 6,5X70R, escapes me.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

the Austrians and Germans had their own versions of the .450 and .500 BPE cartridges, differing in case shape, case lengths and maybe other things. There was plenty of large game in the Austro-Hungarian empire, no need to consider hunting in faraway colonies or what the Brits were up to.

By the 1960s the 6,5x70R was obsolete, certainly in Germany. I think it is not very probable that the barrel liner was installed as late as 1962.

Your first photographs on page 1 of this thread are gone, can you show these again?

fuhrmann

Of course:












»Kimme und Korn«....










Lovely LOM Case to hold it all.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Any idea if the 450 was BPE or Nitro Express in 1910? Would there have been much adjustment on the »Kimme und Korn« or scope going from 450 to 6,5X70R?


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Germany and Austria never had their own .450 and .500 Nitro Express versions

See the last post by kuduae / Axel E. in the linked thread or more details

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=399399&an=0&page=0#Post399399

Thanks for the pictures. Are there any further proof marks to tell the story of the gun?

I can't comment regarding sight adjustment. But I think that compared to the cost of an insert barrel a new "Kimmenblatt" is a minor effort.

I have smoked it over with a loupe & there just aren't anymore on the tubeset. And the frame & water-table is devoid of any marks. I have not pulled the locks or the metal buttplate yet. Seems a story masked for the moment, but possible lost due to the ravages of time.


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

You must login to see the info:

>>last week I had the pleasure to inspect a hammer double rifle with an underlever opener to the right hand side. It is marked on one side plate with "Joh. Springer´s Erben in Wien"
and on the other side plate "K. u. K. Hammer Gewehr Lieferanten" = royal hammer rifle manufacturer

It is very elaborate in embellishment and has a small stock plate silver? with a crown.
The functioning and fitting is very good, there are also some time-consuming details in the making:
front post and rear sight are in a matching blue color from heat treatment, there is a small diopter post inlay on the upper wrist side, all screws are decorated with embellishment, and the visible screw slots are in line, etc.

The barrels are of 64cm length and have on the flats the serial no. 91xx and proof marks of austria (eagle and shield with a cross).

There is another number also on the flats, which might correspond (partly) to the barrel diameter:
1150.01

Directly on one barrel, not on the flats, there is one number stamped: 24.01.11 .4
which might be a production date of the barrels and the 4 ? I do not know.

The rifle has a shallow profile in the twist which would match the use of lead bullets.

There was no other information or paperwork connected, only one box of ammunition by the manufacturer
"Dorfner, Wien" with the caliber designation ".450 Express / 60 ",
which seems a little bit odd, because
- if the rifle was a .450 Black Powder Express, the case should measure 3 1/4" in length,
but the measurement on the ammunition case is 60mm case length.
- the light weight of the rifle = 3050 grams 6 1/2 lbs indicates a stalking rifle for small game like roe deer, which does not need the power of a full .450 BP Express.

If anyboday can bring more information about the cartridge or other interesting details I would be very delighted!<<

From the serial number from 1901 it sounds like it was sourced from a maker other than Springer's Erben.

Post by Axel E. referencing Dixon:

>>The 11.6x60 R aka 450 Short was not uncommon in central Europe, especially in the realms of the Austro-Hungarian empire. As the cases have the 14 mm base of the British .450, cases for the American .45-90 are much too thin for reforming. Nearly ideal would be RWS cases for the old 10.3 x 60 R aka .450-400 2 3/8” BPE.
Quote from W.B.DIXON’s book European Sporting cartridges:<<


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

Now I did not mention the German Preliminary Proofmarks like Imperial Eagle, S and Kruupscher Stahl, Script Gothic SS from the Schilling forge, etc.

The bore stamp of >>11.5<< is still present.

But there is not a 6,5X70R mark on it no where...... And there's not another gunmaking centre that would install a 6,5X70R barrel.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

It will not require a "gunmaking centre" to install an insert barrel. A skilled mechanic can do that.
I Know a gunsmith nearby who has done this until recently in his one-man shop.

And then, depending on location and circumstances, avoid the last step of sending the piece to the proof house?

No, no, no, I was referring to the chambering of the 6,5X70R. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was about the only place that had a 6,5X70R cult like following.

Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse