doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Joh. Springer's Erben - 1910 - 16 X 11.5mm(450 Cal

In principle, I may not shy back from offering what might end up to be a stupid question or a silly musing. I see that rather as a win-win-situation.
Either I succeed (inadvertantly, and possibly due to my ignorance) in making people laugh or smile, which is not a bad thing in a forum, now and then, rather than spewing hate.
Or I get set straight, and have to chavce to learn something new or to unlearn something old. Either way, it's fine.

So, I see two possibilities:
- the gun's shotgun barrels may have been sleeved from the front (but the joining step would have had to be distinctly farther forward than usual], or
- the gun's shotgun chambers may have been sleeved from the rear, leaving the remaining old barrels quite overbore; but this was not necessarily always seen as something bad.
[Clarification: when I wrote "sleeved from the rear", I mean what Americans call "permanent chamber inserts"]

Carcano

Yeah, that was my thoughts too but although I cannot fully view all the proofmarks, it seems that all the marks forward of the flats are still present. And too, I did not decipher the British reproof date, but I thought they applied the word >>Sleeved<< when they did something like that. And I do see what looks like an R in the water-table well.

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Looks like a Birmingham 1993 reproof ("UC" date code), doesn't it?

Right now in Germany, at least two Drillinge with a 6,5x70R rifle barrel are being offered. One is from Barthelmes (Zella-Mehlis) with a Roux under-lever and three visible strikers, in good yet objectively overpriced condition; the other one is a hammer gun with a Jones side-lever underneath the trigger guard with single rotating bite ("kurzer Schlüssel" in German parlance).

Carcano

Oh yeah, I now recall Alfred Ungewitter of Gut Roßdorf or Gutsbesitzer Ungewitter, I think he may have installed a few 6.6X70R barrel inserts for me.... No, he was a serious contributor to Wurftaben, centering on shotgun ballistics. He was active w/ station head Paul Preuß @ the Neumannswalde facility bring scattergun technology forward for Wurftaubenschießen before the 1st Major Disagreement in Europe. Gutsbesitzer Ungewitter managed the German shooting selection committees for the 1912 Stockholm Games and the planned 1916 Berlin Games. I know he hunted in Corsica and neutralized 3 trophy Mouflons, but I have not read of his scattergun accolades.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

I touched up the hammers & assembled. Now, the angle of the rifle striker is quite acute & the hole in the standing breech is a bit enlarged(I will try to get a foto), so the striker seems to hit the primer odd.



Unless you have a good idea what you are doing, it is Best to removed the locks, cocked in battery. If not, the hammers may be riding against/kissing the strikers, & add a bit more friction in removal. So of course, it is much easier to assemble with the hammers in battery.

On many German Guns, you can hold the triggers down(with the safety off of course) and close the action and they locks will remain out of battery or not cocked. Then you can divorce the tubeset from the frame/receiver, insert some ammo, spent or not - your choice, reassemble & see how it all mates. In this case of the Springer's Erben Kombo the action just will not close because the rifle striker protrudes a bit too much. When I store or transport a hunting gun, I typically relax the locks.


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

Zerfahrenheit unserer Munition - 1908

Wolfgang devised a summary doc with a few points on the lack of standardization and fate of similar cartridges that fell out of favour.

1. The Chaos of Diversity
Every hunter and shooter is aware of the overwhelming variety in rifle calibers, case types, bullet
lengths, bullet shapes, loads, and primers. This diversity has reached a point where it is nearly
impossible for a customer to purchase replacement ammunition without providing an exact sample
cartridge. Even for gunsmiths, procuring specific cartridges based on a provided sample is often
difficult.


2. Strategic Fragmentation by Gunmakers
The author notes that German gunsmiths and dealers seem to take a peculiar pride in introducing as
many different types of rifle ammunition to the market as possible. As soon as a standard, such as
an 82 mm case, is established, another manufacturer will introduce an 80 mm case just to claim an
"exclusive model".
While this may benefit a gunsmith with a small, local clientele—essentially forcing the customer to
return to them for ammunition—it creates significant problems for the hunter. The gun becomes the
"stock," and the cartridges are the "coupons" the gunmaker clips for as long as the rifle is in use.
However, if the rifle changes hands, the new owner may not know the original source, or the
specific cartridge might disappear from the market entirely after a few years.


3. Comparison with International Standards
The article highlights that the global success of English and American cartridges is primarily due
to their uniformity. Standards like the .44-40, .38-72, or .25-35 can be bought from any dealer
worldwide without needing to specify exact powder loads.
In contrast, ordering German 8 mm cartridges requires complex explanations because of the
unnecessary number of minor powder increments (e.g., 2g, 2.1g, 2.15g) and the staggering variety
of bullet shapes. The author estimates there are nearly a thousand different bullet types in Germany,
with approximately 50 different varieties of 8 mm steel-jacketed bullets alone.
4. Technical Obstacles: Rims and Labeling
The confusion extends even to the dimensions of cartridge rims, where artificial variations are
created to prevent interchangeability. Some gunmakers fear a loss of "reputation" if they stock
ammunition that is also available in a competitor's shop.
Furthermore, the author criticizes the lack of clear headstamps on cartridge cases. While the
manufacturer's name is sometimes present, identifying the caliber or specific cartridge type on the
head would be far more important for the hunter. Currently, case manufacturers often stamp the
names of small, obscure gunsmiths on the cases, which complicates identification for the user.


5. Proposed Solutions
The article concludes that the German arms and ammunition trade would see a massive upswing if
it actively pursued standardization. The author suggests:
• Bullet and case manufacturers should focus on producing only the most popular types.
• A uniform labeling system for calibers should be implemented on the case heads.
• Labeling should be based on logical criteria rather than arbitrary catalog numbers.
The article is signed by the Versuchsstation Neumannswalde, reflecting the institution's role as a
"pathfinder" through the technical confusion of the era.

Maybe Gutsbesitzer Ungewitter was driving the Neumannswalde Cartridge Standardization Wagon????


Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse

The subject cartridge, 6,6X70R „Bleistiftpatrone“ was purportedly introduced in 1911, per 7,35 Carcano, but it doesn't seem to have made the RWS Catalogue until 1928, when the Alpine Round Craze heated up with Franz Sodia driving the sled.

Various names for the Alpine Round are said to be:

6,5×70R Nimrod
6,6×70R
6,6×71R
6,5×70
6,5×70R Sauer

Hochachtungsvoll,

Raimey
rse