doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Westley Richards 16143 – history & A.C.M. initials

Hello everyone,

Greetings from France.

I am trying to learn as much as possible about an early Westley Richards side-by-side shotgun in my family, serial number 16143.

The gun is marked:

WESTLEY RICHARDS – 178 New Bond Street, London
Serial No. 16143
DEELEY’S PATENT EJECTOR A649
PATENT 17731 / 1897 / 236
PATENT ONE TRIGGER

The barrel rib also refers to His Majesty King Edward VII.

The gun appears to have an early hand-detachable / Droplock-type action, ejectors and a single Patent One Trigger.

One detail particularly interests me: there is a gold oval escutcheon in the stock engraved with the initials:

A.C.M.

I would really like to discover who A.C.M. was and whether these initials could belong to an original or early owner.

I have already contacted Rock Island Auction Company in the USA. From photographs, they identified it as a:

“Westley Richards side-by-side Boxlock Ejector shotgun, SN#16143”

and gave a preliminary auction estimate of $3,500–$5,500, with possible placement in their Premier Auction after physical inspection.

Westley Richards can research the original factory records, but their historical service is paid. Before paying for that, I am hoping experienced collectors here may be able to help.

I would particularly like to know:

1. Can serial number 16143 be dated more precisely?
2. Can anyone confirm the exact action/model or grade?
3. What do Patent 17731/1897 – 236 and Deeley’s Patent Ejector A649 tell us?
4. Does anyone know of Westley Richards guns with nearby serial numbers and documented dates?
5. Does anyone recognise the initials A.C.M., or know how they might be researched?
6. Is this combination of early hand-detachable action, ejectors and Patent One Trigger particularly unusual or desirable?
7. What would knowledgeable collectors consider a realistic current market value?

Regarding condition, the gun is not perfect but presents well for its age. The visible pitting/corrosion appears mainly concentrated near the muzzles, over approximately the final 10 cm / 4 inches of the barrels. I have not yet had the barrel wall thickness professionally measured.

Unfortunately, the original case is no longer with the gun.

I have many detailed photographs of the complete gun, action, barrel flats, proof marks, serial numbers, patent markings, bores, engraving and the A.C.M. gold oval.

I have not added photographs yet because I am still learning how image hosting works on this forum. If photographs would help, please tell me what you would like to see and I will gladly provide them.

Any information, even a small clue, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much from France,

Thomas

Thomas,
Welcome aboard! I imported Darne shotguns from St. Etienne in an earlier phase of my life.

Pick 4 or 5 clear photos of your gun, very important to get a good photo of the flats of the barrels, the proof marks are key to the information we can give you about your gun. Email them to me, and I will get them up on the board for you.

tedjs@usfamily.net

Best,
Ted

Hi Ted,

Thank you very much for your welcome and for offering to help me. I really appreciate it.

I will select 4 or 5 of my clearest photographs, especially the barrel flats and proof marks, and email them to you.

Thanks again for taking the time to help a French newcomer!

Best regards from France,
Thomas

Welcome Thomas.

I can’t believe WR wants $270 for a gun history letter. On the doublegunshop homepage there is link to “other useful information” and then you can go to “high grade shotguns dates of production”. Based on this link, WR serial number 16000 was made in 1901 and gun serial number 17000 was made in 1908. Your gun was probably made late 1901 or early 1902. The letter from WR will tell you the exact date it was made, quality and features of the gun, and who was the customer. Given the London address it was probably sold out of the London shop and not sold in Birmingham. The proof marks on the barrel flat or they may be on the bottom of the barrels should give a closer date on when the gun went through proof.

Ken

Thank you Ken, this is extremely helpful.

The 1901–1902 estimate is particularly interesting because I have been trying to reconcile the serial number with the Birmingham proof marks on the barrels, which another member dated to 1887–1896.

This apparent difference in dates is one of the things I am most interested in understanding. Could it indicate that the barrels pre-date the completed gun, or that the gun was subsequently rebarrelled or otherwise modified?

The gun also carries Deeley’s Patent Ejector A649, Patent 17731/1897/236, “Patent One Trigger”, and what appears to be an early detachable-lock/Droplock configuration.

I would also very much like to identify the original customer, particularly because the stock has a gold oval engraved “A.C.M.”

I agree that $270 is quite a substantial amount for the factory letter, so I am trying to learn as much as possible before deciding whether it is justified.

Thank you again for taking the time to look into serial number 16143.

Thomas

These were the most useful of the photos sent to my email:













That wasn’t a cheap gun when it was new. I love model C lever work, and the scalloped back frame, others will delve into the proof marks. We are probably going to need higher resolution photos of the flats.

Nice gun!

Best,
Ted

Westley Richards should be ashamed of their reluctance to provide historical information on their guns.

Thomas I can’t see the proof marks well enough to read them. The gun looks like a detachable (drop) lock. WR didn’t come out with the detachable lock until 1897. You should probably work on getting the rust off the end of the barrels.

Another curious question: if you’re in France why did you discuss the gun with Rock Island instead of Holt’s?

Ken

This is a link from the WR Explora blog WR Serial Numbers. It shows serial number 16001 starting in 1901.

Ken

Thank you Ted. That is very interesting, particularly your comment that this would not have been an inexpensive gun when new.

I am trying to determine exactly what grade/configuration Westley Richards would have considered this gun when it was built, especially given the detachable locks, Deeley ejector, Patent One Trigger, engraving and the gold A.C.M. oval.

If anything in the engraving, Model C lever or scalloped-back action helps identify its original grade or quality level, I would be very interested in your opinion.

I will also try to provide clearer photographs of the barrel flats and proof marks.

Many thanks again,
Thomas

Thank you Ken. The WR serial-number information confirming that 16001 starts in 1901 is extremely useful, so 16143 being an early-1900s gun now seems quite convincing.

This makes the barrel proof marks even more interesting. I will take much clearer close-up photographs of every proof mark on the flats and underside of both barrels so we can hopefully establish exactly what happened.

Regarding Rock Island, I contacted them simply because I was looking for an independent opinion on identification and market value, particularly from the American collector market. I am not committed to selling the gun through them. I am in France and I am primarily trying to document the gun properly and understand its history before making any decision.

I had not contacted Holt’s yet. If you think they would be particularly appropriate for a British Westley Richards of this period, I would certainly be interested in approaching them as well.

The possibility that this is an early detachable-lock gun is one of the things I find most interesting about it.

Thank you again,
Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for sharing your shotgun here. It's always interesting to look at a shotgun by a top maker like WR. It is unfortunate that WR want $270 for a gun history as this is higher than Purdey or John Dickson.

Rust from poor storage can raise lots of concerns when it comes to value. If it's deep enough, it can't really be cleaned up. Have you opened the drop plate to examine the locks? Is there any rust in the action, inside the bores, or just on the outside of the gun?

A decent condition droplock in the US is a $5,000 gun and only goes up as condition improves. But bad barrels kill value, since replacing barrels is very expensive.

Looking forward to seeing more photos.

Regards,

Chris

(Ted - if I click on the pictures you shared, and thank you for that, it takes me to the hosting service's website, but I cannot figure out how to see larger versions of the pictures. Am I missing something? I'm using Chrome.)

Thomas,

You might want to call WR directly and ask if they can provide the basic information on the gun. They will usually provide some information with a phone call.

Ken

Ken,

I also need to try that. I got a history on my droplock and that was good, although so far out WR, Dicksons, Purdey and Watson, the most thorough write-up’s come from Dickson with Purdey also being good. Anyway, I just bought a second WR at the Harper Field auction this week. The lastest one is from 1937, based on the table you shared. It’s a Heronshaw, so a lesser grade than Thomas’ gun, but still nice engraving, a single trigger, and some case colors remaining. It would be nice to know if they know if it was sold to an individual vs the trade before ordering a history.

I should note that while the new WR has a maker’s case with a name written on the label, that name matches the stock oval but not the initials on the outside of the case.

Chris

I was really impressed by a gentleman from Dickson who reached out to me with information on a gun I'd posted elsewhere. gave a full rundown on the gun, and pointed out a couple of things I'd missed...and I wound up passing on the gun.

Chris,

Thank you very much for your detailed comments.

I also noticed your comment about having difficulty viewing the photographs in a larger size. Ted very kindly uploaded the photographs for me, but I have the original high-resolution files here in France.

I can post additional close-up photographs directly on ShotgunWorld, particularly of the barrel flats, proof marks, barrel numbers, action, detachable locks and the damaged areas near the muzzles. If there are any specific markings or areas you would like photographed, please tell me exactly what you need and I will take the clearest possible pictures.

Your comments about the condition and value are very helpful. I have not yet had the detachable locks or the internal mechanism professionally inspected, and I do not intend to fire the gun before the barrels, bores and wall thickness have been properly examined.

Your observation concerning the stock oval is also particularly interesting. My gun has a gold oval engraved “A.C.M.”, and identifying those initials is one of the main objectives of my research.

I am also now investigating whether the present barrels are original to No. 16143 or whether they may have been fitted at a later date, because the serial-number chronology and the proof marks appear to raise some questions.

Thank you again for your help,
Thomas

Ken,

Thank you. I think calling Westley Richards directly is an excellent suggestion. Before paying $270 for the full history letter, I will contact them and ask whether they can at least confirm some basic information for serial number 16143 — particularly the approximate production date, original configuration/grade and, if possible, whether the present barrel configuration corresponds with their records.

If they are willing to provide even a few basic details by telephone, that could help resolve some of the contradictions we are seeing.

Thank you again,
Thomas

Better pics and some discussion here
https://www.shotgunworld.com/thread...lue.592794/?post_id=5370840#post-5370840

Thomas,
As interesting as that gun is, it might be a very expensive mistake to put any money into an attempted resurrection of it. We have a saying here, the barrels are the heart of the gun, and those barrels are pretty far gone. It was a beautiful and useful gun at one point, but, that time has passed. It is a shame.

Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

Thank you. I completely understand your point, and I appreciate your honesty.

I am not looking to spend thousands trying to turn the gun back into a shooter if the economics simply do not make sense. For the moment, I intend to preserve it as it is and continue researching its history before making any decision about restoration.

What interests me most now is understanding exactly what No. 16143 originally was when it left Westley Richards, whether the present barrels are original to the gun or were fitted later, and, if possible, identifying the owner represented by the gold “A.C.M.” oval.

If the gun turns out to have an interesting documented history or an unusual original specification, I would rather preserve that history than carry out an expensive restoration that might destroy some of its originality.

Your opinion on the barrels is therefore very useful to me, even if it is not the answer I was hoping for.

Thank you again for your help and for taking the time to look at the gun.

Best,
Thomas

I've emailed Westley Richards on a few guns and they have provided information that they didn't charge for. Saying that, the info was more gun related not when sold and to whom. The following was one of the emails that I received from an employee about my sidelever Westley. Here they did provide the original owner. No charge.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your kind enquiry,

Your gun was completed for a Sir William Burdett on the 25th of November 1896 & must have had a second gun made later.
Our sidelever shotguns were a special order & we have only seen a handful of them over the years, sadly we cannot confirm how many were made.

With best regards,

Mike,

Thank you very much. This is extremely helpful, and the example of the information Westley Richards provided you is exactly the kind of information I am hoping to obtain.

I will definitely try contacting Westley Richards directly before paying for the full historical research letter.

If you happen to remember which email address or department at Westley Richards you contacted, I would really appreciate it.

My main questions concern serial number 16143: its exact completion date, original configuration/grade, whether the gun was originally built with the detachable lock and single trigger, and, if possible, the name of the original customer. I am also particularly interested in the gold A.C.M. initials on the stock and whether they appear in the original records.

Thanks again for taking the time to help.

Best regards,
Thomas

I may be able to help with the hunt for the initials, using my copy of the 1907 Kelly's Directory of significant people. Let me know if you find any further clues.

Au revoir

HB

Bonjour Thomas,

I may have a name for you. I have quickly scanned my copy of "Kelly's Handbook to the Titled, Landed and Official Classes 1905' and can only see one person that fits, out of roughly 2,000.

He is:
Arthur Charles MITCHELL, the son of the late Fraser Henry Mitchell of Upper Wimpole Street, west London. He was born in 1847, and married firstly in 1872 Laura, the fifth daughter of Sir Michael Hicks Hicks-Beach, the eighth baronet, who lived in Gloucester. She died in 1874.

Secondly he married Constance, the daughter of the late John Henry Elwes of Colesbourne Park, Gloucestershire.

He was a D. L. (Doctor of Law) and a Justice of the Peace for Wiltshire and Gloucestershire.

He lived in a large house called Highgrove, just outside Tetbury in Gloucestershire. This house was purchased about 30 years ago by the then Charles, Prince of Wales, now our King Charles III.

That area is a good shooting area, so it could be him??

Bon chance!

HB