doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Westley Richards 16143 – history & A.C.M. initials

Hello everyone,

Greetings from France.

I am trying to learn as much as possible about an early Westley Richards side-by-side shotgun in my family, serial number 16143.

The gun is marked:

WESTLEY RICHARDS – 178 New Bond Street, London
Serial No. 16143
DEELEY’S PATENT EJECTOR A649
PATENT 17731 / 1897 / 236
PATENT ONE TRIGGER

The barrel rib also refers to His Majesty King Edward VII.

The gun appears to have an early hand-detachable / Droplock-type action, ejectors and a single Patent One Trigger.

One detail particularly interests me: there is a gold oval escutcheon in the stock engraved with the initials:

A.C.M.

I would really like to discover who A.C.M. was and whether these initials could belong to an original or early owner.

I have already contacted Rock Island Auction Company in the USA. From photographs, they identified it as a:

“Westley Richards side-by-side Boxlock Ejector shotgun, SN#16143”

and gave a preliminary auction estimate of $3,500–$5,500, with possible placement in their Premier Auction after physical inspection.

Westley Richards can research the original factory records, but their historical service is paid. Before paying for that, I am hoping experienced collectors here may be able to help.

I would particularly like to know:

1. Can serial number 16143 be dated more precisely?
2. Can anyone confirm the exact action/model or grade?
3. What do Patent 17731/1897 – 236 and Deeley’s Patent Ejector A649 tell us?
4. Does anyone know of Westley Richards guns with nearby serial numbers and documented dates?
5. Does anyone recognise the initials A.C.M., or know how they might be researched?
6. Is this combination of early hand-detachable action, ejectors and Patent One Trigger particularly unusual or desirable?
7. What would knowledgeable collectors consider a realistic current market value?

Regarding condition, the gun is not perfect but presents well for its age. The visible pitting/corrosion appears mainly concentrated near the muzzles, over approximately the final 10 cm / 4 inches of the barrels. I have not yet had the barrel wall thickness professionally measured.

Unfortunately, the original case is no longer with the gun.

I have many detailed photographs of the complete gun, action, barrel flats, proof marks, serial numbers, patent markings, bores, engraving and the A.C.M. gold oval.

I have not added photographs yet because I am still learning how image hosting works on this forum. If photographs would help, please tell me what you would like to see and I will gladly provide them.

Any information, even a small clue, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much from France,

Thomas

Thomas,
Welcome aboard! I imported Darne shotguns from St. Etienne in an earlier phase of my life.

Pick 4 or 5 clear photos of your gun, very important to get a good photo of the flats of the barrels, the proof marks are key to the information we can give you about your gun. Email them to me, and I will get them up on the board for you.

tedjs@usfamily.net

Best,
Ted

Hi Ted,

Thank you very much for your welcome and for offering to help me. I really appreciate it.

I will select 4 or 5 of my clearest photographs, especially the barrel flats and proof marks, and email them to you.

Thanks again for taking the time to help a French newcomer!

Best regards from France,
Thomas

Welcome Thomas.

I can’t believe WR wants $270 for a gun history letter. On the doublegunshop homepage there is link to “other useful information” and then you can go to “high grade shotguns dates of production”. Based on this link, WR serial number 16000 was made in 1901 and gun serial number 17000 was made in 1908. Your gun was probably made late 1901 or early 1902. The letter from WR will tell you the exact date it was made, quality and features of the gun, and who was the customer. Given the London address it was probably sold out of the London shop and not sold in Birmingham. The proof marks on the barrel flat or they may be on the bottom of the barrels should give a closer date on when the gun went through proof.

Ken

Thank you Ken, this is extremely helpful.

The 1901–1902 estimate is particularly interesting because I have been trying to reconcile the serial number with the Birmingham proof marks on the barrels, which another member dated to 1887–1896.

This apparent difference in dates is one of the things I am most interested in understanding. Could it indicate that the barrels pre-date the completed gun, or that the gun was subsequently rebarrelled or otherwise modified?

The gun also carries Deeley’s Patent Ejector A649, Patent 17731/1897/236, “Patent One Trigger”, and what appears to be an early detachable-lock/Droplock configuration.

I would also very much like to identify the original customer, particularly because the stock has a gold oval engraved “A.C.M.”

I agree that $270 is quite a substantial amount for the factory letter, so I am trying to learn as much as possible before deciding whether it is justified.

Thank you again for taking the time to look into serial number 16143.

Thomas

These were the most useful of the photos sent to my email:













That wasn’t a cheap gun when it was new. I love model C lever work, and the scalloped back frame, others will delve into the proof marks. We are probably going to need higher resolution photos of the flats.

Nice gun!

Best,
Ted

Westley Richards should be ashamed of their reluctance to provide historical information on their guns.

Thomas I can’t see the proof marks well enough to read them. The gun looks like a detachable (drop) lock. WR didn’t come out with the detachable lock until 1897. You should probably work on getting the rust off the end of the barrels.

Another curious question: if you’re in France why did you discuss the gun with Rock Island instead of Holt’s?

Ken

This is a link from the WR Explora blog WR Serial Numbers. It shows serial number 16001 starting in 1901.

Ken

Thank you Ted. That is very interesting, particularly your comment that this would not have been an inexpensive gun when new.

I am trying to determine exactly what grade/configuration Westley Richards would have considered this gun when it was built, especially given the detachable locks, Deeley ejector, Patent One Trigger, engraving and the gold A.C.M. oval.

If anything in the engraving, Model C lever or scalloped-back action helps identify its original grade or quality level, I would be very interested in your opinion.

I will also try to provide clearer photographs of the barrel flats and proof marks.

Many thanks again,
Thomas