doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Westley Richards 16143 – history & A.C.M. initials

Thank you Ken. The WR serial-number information confirming that 16001 starts in 1901 is extremely useful, so 16143 being an early-1900s gun now seems quite convincing.

This makes the barrel proof marks even more interesting. I will take much clearer close-up photographs of every proof mark on the flats and underside of both barrels so we can hopefully establish exactly what happened.

Regarding Rock Island, I contacted them simply because I was looking for an independent opinion on identification and market value, particularly from the American collector market. I am not committed to selling the gun through them. I am in France and I am primarily trying to document the gun properly and understand its history before making any decision.

I had not contacted Holt’s yet. If you think they would be particularly appropriate for a British Westley Richards of this period, I would certainly be interested in approaching them as well.

The possibility that this is an early detachable-lock gun is one of the things I find most interesting about it.

Thank you again,
Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for sharing your shotgun here. It's always interesting to look at a shotgun by a top maker like WR. It is unfortunate that WR want $270 for a gun history as this is higher than Purdey or John Dickson.

Rust from poor storage can raise lots of concerns when it comes to value. If it's deep enough, it can't really be cleaned up. Have you opened the drop plate to examine the locks? Is there any rust in the action, inside the bores, or just on the outside of the gun?

A decent condition droplock in the US is a $5,000 gun and only goes up as condition improves. But bad barrels kill value, since replacing barrels is very expensive.

Looking forward to seeing more photos.

Regards,

Chris

(Ted - if I click on the pictures you shared, and thank you for that, it takes me to the hosting service's website, but I cannot figure out how to see larger versions of the pictures. Am I missing something? I'm using Chrome.)

Thomas,

You might want to call WR directly and ask if they can provide the basic information on the gun. They will usually provide some information with a phone call.

Ken

Ken,

I also need to try that. I got a history on my droplock and that was good, although so far out WR, Dicksons, Purdey and Watson, the most thorough write-up’s come from Dickson with Purdey also being good. Anyway, I just bought a second WR at the Harper Field auction this week. The lastest one is from 1937, based on the table you shared. It’s a Heronshaw, so a lesser grade than Thomas’ gun, but still nice engraving, a single trigger, and some case colors remaining. It would be nice to know if they know if it was sold to an individual vs the trade before ordering a history.

I should note that while the new WR has a maker’s case with a name written on the label, that name matches the stock oval but not the initials on the outside of the case.

Chris

I was really impressed by a gentleman from Dickson who reached out to me with information on a gun I'd posted elsewhere. gave a full rundown on the gun, and pointed out a couple of things I'd missed...and I wound up passing on the gun.

Chris,

Thank you very much for your detailed comments.

I also noticed your comment about having difficulty viewing the photographs in a larger size. Ted very kindly uploaded the photographs for me, but I have the original high-resolution files here in France.

I can post additional close-up photographs directly on ShotgunWorld, particularly of the barrel flats, proof marks, barrel numbers, action, detachable locks and the damaged areas near the muzzles. If there are any specific markings or areas you would like photographed, please tell me exactly what you need and I will take the clearest possible pictures.

Your comments about the condition and value are very helpful. I have not yet had the detachable locks or the internal mechanism professionally inspected, and I do not intend to fire the gun before the barrels, bores and wall thickness have been properly examined.

Your observation concerning the stock oval is also particularly interesting. My gun has a gold oval engraved “A.C.M.”, and identifying those initials is one of the main objectives of my research.

I am also now investigating whether the present barrels are original to No. 16143 or whether they may have been fitted at a later date, because the serial-number chronology and the proof marks appear to raise some questions.

Thank you again for your help,
Thomas

Ken,

Thank you. I think calling Westley Richards directly is an excellent suggestion. Before paying $270 for the full history letter, I will contact them and ask whether they can at least confirm some basic information for serial number 16143 — particularly the approximate production date, original configuration/grade and, if possible, whether the present barrel configuration corresponds with their records.

If they are willing to provide even a few basic details by telephone, that could help resolve some of the contradictions we are seeing.

Thank you again,
Thomas

Better pics and some discussion here
https://www.shotgunworld.com/thread...lue.592794/?post_id=5370840#post-5370840

Thomas,
As interesting as that gun is, it might be a very expensive mistake to put any money into an attempted resurrection of it. We have a saying here, the barrels are the heart of the gun, and those barrels are pretty far gone. It was a beautiful and useful gun at one point, but, that time has passed. It is a shame.

Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

Thank you. I completely understand your point, and I appreciate your honesty.

I am not looking to spend thousands trying to turn the gun back into a shooter if the economics simply do not make sense. For the moment, I intend to preserve it as it is and continue researching its history before making any decision about restoration.

What interests me most now is understanding exactly what No. 16143 originally was when it left Westley Richards, whether the present barrels are original to the gun or were fitted later, and, if possible, identifying the owner represented by the gold “A.C.M.” oval.

If the gun turns out to have an interesting documented history or an unusual original specification, I would rather preserve that history than carry out an expensive restoration that might destroy some of its originality.

Your opinion on the barrels is therefore very useful to me, even if it is not the answer I was hoping for.

Thank you again for your help and for taking the time to look at the gun.

Best,
Thomas