doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Wall thickness opinion

A very interesting Damascus barrel in chain link pattern, and a very crude, talentless and uninspired engraving, that draws the whole gun down. Sadly.

Carcano

I guess I'm not sophisticated enough. I like that gun a lot. And fwiw, I regularly shoot a few guns with wall thickness in the low 20s and one that has a small area near the muzzle that measures 19 thou. All with low pressure ammo that I have loaded and I've sent the loads out for pressure testing.

thanks for providing good photos, on their basis, i'll start over;

the gun was not proofed for smokeless powers, the rule establishing the marking of barrel weights came into force on 6 june 1892, and at the same time chamber markings were required - shown as a fraction with chamber length over chamber diameter: example given is 70/20,6 (but with the 70 atop the 20,6 - that would be read as 70mm chambers over 20,6mm diameter just forward of the rim). so the gun was proofed no later than early june 1892, and i believe with standard (short) belgian chambers.

the 2 3/4 (inch) markings over the bore and choke measurements, i do not believe to be original to the gun - likely professionally applied when rechambered, but not done by francotte or the liege proofhouse. original bores were - 18.5mm, and both chokes were 17.7mm - .728 and .697 = 31 thou chokes.

not having supplied the serial number range it would be worthwhile to go to the bottom of each page here on DGSBBS - click on "other useful information" and then click on "high grade shotguns dates of production". the second line starts with francotte and goes back to 1887, that should give additional information to confirm or reject the information given here.

best regards

Tough to date definitively with the proof marks.
Obviously made for the U.S. market with the 2 3/4" and 'Francotte's Choke Bore'. I've seen the 2 3/4" mark on guns imported by William Reed, VL&D & others
Nice chain damascus likely by the highly regarding Delcour-Dupont (DD) which became Canons Delcour in 1921
Non Pour Balle is usually pre-1897 but on the barrel rather than the flats. CHOKE just means muzzle constriction > .08"
It is not Nitro proved which is not uncommon on guns for export to the U.S. as it entailed an additional cost and was not required until 1924
The muzzle constriction over bore was used 1910 - 1921 (if there is no lettre annale) but I've seen earlier guns with the mark.
17.6 mm was the bore at the time of 1st provisional proof and at 3rd finished proof the bore was 18.5 = .728" and muzzle 17.7 = .697"
The Francotte models changed in 1910 and I suspect that's about when it was imported.
If a lower grade 1910 would be 3069something and if medium 709something
The models are here
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/abercrombie-fitch-von-lengerke-detmold-and-francotte.393236/
Bob Beach would know the grade and he does occasionally look in on the Forum
Cornell Pubs has a 1908 VL&D catalog repro (available as a PDF) but I don't know if all the grades are shown
https://cornellpubs.com/product/1150/

2 3/4 looks original based on other AF guns same era

Bob and I are friends and shoot together. He lives about a half hour from me. I emailed him the serial number but I doubt it went through the companies he has records for. He has not gotten back to me yet.

This is an ejector gun and has a gold band between the short rib and the main rib. The chart below says it is medium quality and 1896. I love the engraving on the balls and the bottom including the trigger guard and lower tang. The side engraving is similar to almost all the Francotte guns I have seen.

I stand corrected. The barrels have not been struck after manufacture. All the barrel engraving is intact and sharp and so are the letters and numbers. There is a gold band between the short rib and the main rib. The gun is an ejector gun.

It does say "choke" on the barrels about 1-2" in front of the flats. It also has the serial number there too.

I am curious of the significance of the 2 teeny tiny AF with a crown over each on each side of the flats toward the front. You can see it on the first four pictures.

Bob just contacted me. They have no record of this gun but he is visiting the site right now.

Very pretty Damascus, Milt.

Thank you Stan!

Found a couple of interesting Francotte guns

SN 32145 c. 1898. Siemens-Martin barrels with 2 5/8" chambers and not Nitro proved



VL&D marked 10g SN 33751 c. 1900. 4 Iron Damas Crolle with 2 7/8" chambers



Both have 2 sets of muzzle over bore dimensions.
Belgian First Obligatory Proof for “Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns” was for breech plugged tubes. The barrels were marked with the bore (often overstamped at 3rd Proof) and received the script EL provisional proof mark.
Second Obligatory Proof was for joined barrels, fine bored and finished; likely the first set of dimensions
Third Obligatory Proof was for finished barrels attached to finished action and likely the second dimensions typically with a slightly larger bore