doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Parker Prices

On some of the guns for sale sites reality is finally setting in. Guys think any old Parker's are worth a ton of money.
I see the prices below $999 for Parker VH grades, as they should be. And the best part, they still aren't selling.
No, I am not going to mention the site names.

Dirty Harry

Take a look at the prebid amounts for the 2 day Guyette& Deeter auction that starts tomorrow. The first part of the first day is for Parker shotguns mostly. The prebids being made online are eyewatering in many cases. This is well before the big money attending the auction in person comes into play. Some of the prices already bid for VH models are significant compared to a couple of years ago.

If realty has set in, the realty is that the market believes these guns are undervalued.

Asking prices have no bearing on reality. Hard cash spent sets the market and expected quality as to condition and reality. It is true that junk brings junk prices, but quality is selling high.

I agree, AGS. I have come to learn that anything Dirty Harry posts here regarding the double gun market and related subjects, one should assume the inverse is probably true.
JR

Accurate assessment.

Just went on a well known Guns for sale site,
Parker - 444
Fox - 196
Ithaca - 63
This tell Me a lot more guys are trying to dump their Parker's, than the guys that have Fox's or Ithaca's.
By the way, I like all of them.

Dirty Harry

Like it or not, what guns go for at auctions and retail set the market.

Even if we think they're nuts.

The G&D auction is selling Parkers high, so far.

Hopefully those buyers blow their wads on Parkers...

Gibberish...
JR

Lot's of Gopher Guns (.410s) going for stupid $$$ on G&D today.

$80K for a Model 21.

Hey Roberts, I can tell by your comments, that over the years, you got ''Sucked'' in to buying a lot of over priced Parker's !

Dirty Harry

Quality always sells

Give it a rest Harry, you seem to be digging yourself a hole.

How's the weather in upstate NY, it is a great place to be in the autumn.

Link?

I buy and sell a lot of classic guns and break down many more for parts. If those prices are real...., I'd buy them all.

Just went on a well known Guns for sale site,
Parker - 444
Fox - 196
Ithaca - 63
This tell Me a lot more guys are trying to dump their Parker's, than the guys that have Fox's or Ithaca's.
By the way, I like all of them.

Dirty Harry[/quote]

Link?

I buy and sell a lot of classic guns and break down many more for parts. If those prices are real...., I'd buy them all.[/quote] Utah Shotgunner

Those numbers are how many of each make are for sale, not the ''Price'' of them.

Dirty Harry

Ah, guns are for sale.

News at 6.

im thinking sbs's in general are selling off due owners knowing the new generation doesnt want to own them and the ones who can work on them are fading away into the sunset. lose lose.....SELL.

heck, even krieghoffs are a hard sell these days.

+1

Deteriorating economy also has negative effect on discretionary spending, most members of "Epstein Class" who don't have to worry about rising price of energy meaning everything aren't into collecting fancy shotguns.

I know a lot of people who are starting to sell Parkers (and other good makes). The fact is that to own a quality Parker collection is a serious investment and most of the top collectors are getting along in years. The bulk of them could afford to enjoy them the rest of their life but they choose to try to not dump the burden of disposal on their heirs while maximizing there return. Counter to the common doomsaying, they look at the current high prices as an incentive to do it now. There are a lot of Parkers on the market because there are likely more high grade and good condition Parkers on the market than maybe all the other US brands combined. Maybe not in total numbers but quality numbers.

+1

Not just famed Parker Bros shotguns.
One very popular internet site for fancy shotgun sellers/buyers currently lists 337 Winchester Model 21 for sale, the dumping has begun in earnest. The pool of prospective buyers is constantly shrinking. I don't blame the sellers, smaller profit is better than no profit at all.

Reports of the death of the double gun market are greatly exaggerated.

The numbers of Parker’s or Winchester M21’s for sale are quite small in relation to the numbers produced and surviving. Fine guns are often owned by older shooters who can afford them. The market has always turned over due to age and death. I suspect that old editions of SHOTGUN NEWS or the later GUN LIST would show similar numbers 20-40 years ago. It is possible that due to INCREASED prices and availability of information relating to these prices that non shooting heirs move collections at a higher rate than in the past.

Also, fine gun owners today are often well aware that their heirs are not in a position to market their collections at favorable prices so they do so prior to passing. I suspect that in the past fine gun owners had little more interest in the value of their guns than they did their family silver or Packard automobile.


The internet has educated sellers and freed up some inventory no doubt.

Quality will retain value. Sale of QUALITY shotguns will ebb and flow just as other art forms do. The trends will be upward.

The education of the buying public will lower the prices of low quality guns this will include worn or abused guns, low grade hardware store guns, about all American guns other than Parker or Winchester 21’s. High grade Parker’s, small bore Parker’s and pristine M 21’s will continue to climb. Fox, LC Smith, Ithaca, LeFever and various other guns have been overpriced for many years. The cult like following of a couple of authors (who incidentally owned no fine guns apparently) pushed prices beyond reason for some poorly designed and cheaply built American guns. The “high grade” examples of these guns are exactly like the lesser grades beneath the surface. Stocks and springs break in the same places at similar rates. Expect some correction in those to continue.

The vast majority of doom and gloom I hear comes from people who don’t own fine guns and seem resentful of those who do. They appear to relish the plummeting prices they predict. Sorry, it’s just not happening in truly fine guns.

In no particular order the market will be sustained or increased for
pristine guns, small bore guns, long barreled guns, high grade guns. By name think Boss, Holland and Purdey. American guns Parker and Winchester M 21. There are other fine English guns but they will almost certainly drop regardless of quality.

I also wonder why we focus so much on price. The cost of a truly fine gun seldom exceeds the cost of a couple of first rate shooting trips. The buyers of motorcycles, boats, SUV’s, motorhomes and other luxury items of a recreational nature expect rapid depreciation and certainly get it. Fine guns will outperform these items which is not saying much of course.


BTW, I’m looking for a 32” Parker 28 bore gun in B grade or higher in the event I’m wrong it should be easy to find.

If you find a 32” Parker 28 of B-grade and higher get out your checkbook. It might be easier finding hobby horse poop or unicorn horn. Someone here has The Parker Story to look up how many were made.

Prerequisites are "Epstein Class" and young age. In all the years i have examined only one small gauge double with 32" barrels. LGS had Webley & Scott 20ga, the stock didn't fit so I passed on it.

Richard, you are a very welcome voice of wisdom to this site. Your experience is obvious to anyone with eyes to see and a will to hear.

That said, you single (double) out Parkers and 21s on the American side. My only disagreement with that is that I would add graded A H Fox guns to that list.

I own but one Parker, a DHE 16 and 20 ga. barreled set, both with 32" barrels. Easily the highest grade fine gun I own, yet my love and appreciation for graded Philadelphia Fox guns is undiminished. I own and use several.

Just my opinion concerning the best American fine S X S guns.

I have the book. I also have a track history of opening my checkbook for long barreled, high quality 28 bore guns. An unfortunate indulgence.
To my credit I have not done so since last Saturday.

Re: Fox guns

Stanton, thank you for the kind words.

It is very possible that you are correct regarding Fox guns.

I will share a few thoughts I had in forming my opinion.

Prior to the book being written about them Fox guns were not highly regarded in a general sense. They sold, or often as not failed to sell accordingly.

Issues I have personally seen were:

Extremely crude finishing inside on even the highest grades.

Simplicity to the point of appearing cheap. (Some would consider this a virtue) To me the gun appears to be designed to be cheap to build, easy to assemble.

Crude engraving. Low quality external finish.

The few examples I had all were poorly regulated. One threw odd shaped patterns. The lighter guns had barrels so thin people refused to work on them to regulate. Not only were they thin but boring was irregular and some areas were even thinner than others.

I once had a 30” 16 gauge that was under 6#. It was in new condition and of the highest grade I’ve seen. Factory Gold inlay etc.
The patterns did not even overlap in any area. One was fan shaped. Took years to get it sold. This would have been in the early 80’s.

I once saw a lower grade 26” 12 bore A grade iirc. Northern Mississippi. Between Cleveland and Tunica. It was shot to the point of falling apart. I was told it was Nash Buckingham’s “quail gun”. I had no reason to doubt it. Nash was not known as a target shooter and it’s difficult to imagine that shooting any upland gun in the field would ruin it like that if properly constructed. John Bailey probably shot far more quail than Nash. 18,000 iirc. A gun should stand up to that.

In nearly 40 years of pigeon shooting I have never seen a single Fox gun shot. I have seen Parker’s, m21’s, Purdey, Boss, Greener, Fabbri and even L C Smith guns used at one time or another. All SXS of course.

Anyway I was shocked when Fox guns started selling for high prices. I always thought there would be a correction at some point but could be and often am wrong.

Interesting story about "Nash's quail gun". Did you ever get a card copy or Cody letter on that gun? What about the high grade 16? Was that gun lettered, or was it possibly a Tom Gibbons gun?

I own a few Fox guns and shoot them weekly at skeet and sporting. I've patterned all of my Fox guns and found no problem with regulation or patterns. I will admit that they have some rough finishing, particularly on the interior. I think the simplicity of the large robust parts is certainly a virtue. The parts are few in number and seem to rarely have a problem. I've never had anything go wrong with any Fox in 40 years of shooting and hunting. I own and shoot other guns but have come to the conclusion that the Fox guns hold up best to heavy use. Just my personal experience but I know others that have a similar opinion.

I have heard from two gunsmiths that if they had to rely on income from repairing Fox guns, they would be broke. I am pretty sure as Richard said "designed to be cheap to build, easy to assemble" that he is correct however by happenstance the design turned out to be very reliable. Mine all pattern well and to the point. I have had no repairs done to them (so far).

Wow, Richard I see you just joined and already have 110 posts. At that rate you sound like a Man who likes to hear himself ''Talk''.
Robert's said I sound like a Man who thinks I know Every Thing, I don't even come close to you. By the way ''Teddy said Fox Guns, are ''The Finest Gun In The World''

Dirty Harry

Nash Buckingham's quail gun
https://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopic.php?t=9841

https://forum.foxcollectors.com/viewtopic.php?t=10311

Lots of nice SxS going for good money where im watching.

...and Krieghoffs are selling just fine.

What are you afraid of?

Probably getting close to 40 years ago now, I owned an A.H.Fox Sterlingworth ejector 20 ga. with 32" barrels. Pistol grip and splinter forend, original buttplate. Decent condition, very plain wood, ejectors were a little weak, blue was a little thin, receiver silvered out. The chokes had been monkeyed with. Have often thought I should have kept it and had it restocked, restored, maybe engraved lightly, and had the ejectors fixed. Would be very desirable these days. No real regrets, though. Like so many other pieces, I wonder where it is these days...
JR

most of us have special attachments to "the ones that got away".

I will relate one example of just a few short years ago, maybe six years. I was really wanting a 32" Fox for doves, in 20 gauge, but I might have settled for a 16 had everything else been copasetic with the gun. I found not one, but two 32" Fox 20s at the Brays Island Exposition at a booth manned by a New England based vintage gun dealer. One was a Philly Sterly and the other an Philly A grade. They were in very, very nice condition, as I wanted. But, the prices were way above my pay grade and conscience. The Sterly was somewhere around $16K, with the A grade being well up into the $20Ks. I quickly passed, but the condition of those two lingered.

Fast forward about a year and I was contacted privately on the PGCA site by an elderly gentleman who was gradually paring down his collection of nice American and English vintage doubles. He had read and seen pictures I had posted of dove shooting with my vintage doubles and knew of my love for long legged, small-bore ones. He offered me a chance at his 1929 Parker DHE two barrel set. We exchanged many emails and a few phone calls and the DHE came to Georgia, where it remains. The gun is in extremely high condition, bores perfect, beautiful wood, and has 32" barrel sets in 16 and 20 gauge. The exact price is not important for this conversation, but suffice it to say that it was a bit over half as much as the Fox Sterly.

Take from that what you may. The Parker is a gorgeous small bore for doves and I have enjoyed it immensely.

I will hasten to mention that, in answer to observations that A H Fox guns have "crude" internals will little finish, I own about seven of them in various grades from a 20 Sterlingworth Ejector to my big HE grade super Fox 3" chambered, 32" barreled, duck gun. I have used them all extensively. Not one of them has ever had a trigger problem. The trigger pulls have always been very nice, and I am anal about shotgun triggers. The Parker had absolutely the worst triggers I have ever encountered on a vintage gun. Either one would hold the weight of the gun, with the safety off, without tripping the sear. Over seven pounds on one with the other being even higher. A fine old doublegun man from Darlington, SC sorted them out for me and they now stand at about four pounds (or slightly less) each, as they should have been.

All of my Fox doubles have ejectors with the exception of the first one I ever bought, the Sterly 12 with 30" tubes. I don't just like ejectors on dove, duck and quail guns (and competition guns), I REQUIRE them. The idea that they scatter litter all over the landscape is absurdity in the extreme. I trap all my empties as they're being ejected in my right hand and toss them either in the trash can or into the rear game bag or pocket of my shell belt or coat. This allows me to reload much faster than with any extractor gun. After shooting that first Sterly all one dove season and missing many opportunities at shots while I was digging empties out of the chambers I knew it would be ejector doubles for me, from that point on.

As much use as my Philly Fox ejector guns have had over the ensuing years I have had only one failure with a Fox ejector. On my 32" BE grade, built in 1918, the tiny guide rod on the back of an ejector blade broke off. I removed it from the guide hole, fabbed a new pin, silver soldered it into the original ejector and re-installed it. It worked, and continues to work, perfectly to this day.

Now this is opinion, and opinion only . . . . . A H Fox guns have the most elegantly designed action profile ever built on a S X S shotgun. Almost all doublegun makers started by designing the internals, then designing the action around the internals. Parkers have 16 moving parts per lock, hellishly complicated. Nicely finished, yes, but more prone to problems because of the sheer number of moving parts. In comparison, A H Fox guns have 3 moving parts per lock. As others have mentioned, they just don't break. They can be dry fired indefinitely because of their design and the strength of the hammers and rear breech area. Because of and in light of this scarcity of internal parts, the Fox action is smaller and lighter without being weaker, and can have the beautiful "sculpting" that is evident on the action sides.

And, amazingly, the gun was designed and patented by an eighteen year old Ansley H. Fox. He evidently didn't have the business acumen to compete with Parker, Smith, and Ithaca. But, he was a brilliant inventor and designer. The fact that the Sterlingworth outsold the Trojan,by so many multiples, is evidence of the respect the Fox guns had in that day.

I enjoy my Parker greatly, but first place in my American built stable will always be my Foxes. I will not let go of the big HE until forced to, or death separates us. It is the only gun I have ever taken a 6 duck limit with, in flooded timber in Arkansas, with six shells. Only another 20 ga. Fox Ejector could take the place of my Sterly quail and woodcock gun, and it would have to be a graded gun. I have won with the BE Fox at Regional NSCA S X S concurrent events, and taken ducks and doves with it.

All of this just my observations and opinions.

All my best, SRH

Stanton,

Thank you for posting this.

I fully agree on ejectors as well. That are never a problem, always a joy to use and at times add materially to a hunt.

I don’t leave empty shells anywhere and when grouse or quail hunting on public land I seldom return to truck without more empty shells than I fired. I pick up every one I see.

In a wood pigeon blind during the course of a busy day ejectors can yeild dozens of extra shots and add many birds to the bag.

Another point you mentioned is the joy and satisfaction you get from a big 12 bore double. I also have one and treasure it. 32”, stocked to fit me exactly, a shade over 8#, double triggers, ejectors. It’s choked M/F. .022 & .045. Though over choked for American shells its shoots absolutely beautiful patterns with British felt wad ammo it was built for. I sometimes think I’d prefer F/F chokes.

It is seldom the gun that visitors admire in my gun room. It’s usually not commented upon. Few appreciates it like I do which is fine with me.

Thanks again for posting your actual experience with Fox guns. I will reconsider my opinions regarding them. I suppose internal finish is unimportant if no one ever needs to work on them.

I think my aversion to Fox guns stems from the poorly regulated first one I bought with very hard earned money at age 16.

As I am somewhat looking for a Graded Parker 20 bore I picked up my copy of "Parker Guns" by Ed Muderlak. In Chapter 16 "Doves and Extractors" he talks about his GH Parker and how he prefers non ejector guns.
Which brings me back to my early days bird hunting here in central NC. I was hunting public game lands here in Butner, NC and pulled over to a "birdy" looking spot. Grabbed my double and let the dog loose. In to the patch we went Not long into this I looked down and saw two 12 gauge hulls laying next to each other. I bent over and picked them up and low and behold "Birdshot"! Not even another 30 yards I busted the covey. I knew the birds were there from those two spent shells.
Needless to say I was shooting my Ithaca / SKB Model 100 non ejector. I made sure I left no trace any other bird hunter had been there so I could return the following week myself.

I know I will be in an extreme minority with this position, and I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I've never worried about leaving the odd hull in the field or coming across someone else's. In fact, I find it somewhat pleasing to come across the one in the grass or dirt that was from another day or another year where someone fired off what was a thrilling shot at whatever the pursuit entailed, rolling it around in my hand and pondering it a bit before dropping it back near its resting place for the next wayfarer to encounter. Of course, I never leave a pile of empties around my spot in a dove field, being sure to gather up all I can find. But I don't consider empties in the field a bad thing; to the contrary, they remind me of what it's all about...
JR

John, do you think the same way about candy bar wrappers and empty cigarette packs ?

I'm with Mr. Roberts on this one, with perhaps a few modifiers.

A single shell found way out in the middle of nowhere makes me smile just a bit. The older and smaller the gauge the better. But...I will pick up shells (along with the other debris I find on the grouse trails up here) because too many can bother me to see them, especially in a beautiful and otherwise unsullied place.

I always come back with a few more empties than I shot.


Best,
Ted

I have posted my feelings about finding an empty shell as well, before, on this site. Maybe it's worth repeating.

If I am hunting public land I almost never see one. The place Gil and I hunt woodcock are pretty remote and very few souls venture there for doodles. In maybe 10 years of hunting there with him I have never seen a hull that I can recall. If I did, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, and I'd pick it up.

On my private land that has been in my family since 1919 I do find an occasional empty. I steward this land as I farm it in corn, cotton and peanuts. We have had lots of dove shoots here over my 66 years of chasing the little grey rockets. Even with plastic hulls, they deteriorate due to UV rays. I occasionally see them with not much left but a dark, oxidized head. Steel ones will eventually rust away, never to be seen again. Older, solid brass ones will be very dark and hardly noticable.

They bring a smile to my countenance as I recall past "warm corners" in that location. One particular find was, and remains, precious.

I was in a field that I knew held many wild bobs in my grandaddy's day. He was an inveterate quail hunter and started out with a double of some make. He often told me of using Remington New Club shells. One day I found only the head of a New Club, the paper casing being long before returned to the earth from which it came. The markings on the head were sharp and clear, and when I picked it up and wiped it off I instantly knew I was holding the remains of a round grandaddy had fired at a quail. Childhood memories of him flooded back, along with stories of his hunts. Money couldn't buy that old shell head from me, then or now.

I admire those who eschew litter, as I do. But, cigarette packs or candy wrappers are not in the same universe as an old shell casing, for me. I pick up litter on my farm, and those that I lease. When I am invited to a dove shoot on another farm I scour for all the empties, but seldom have any to gather because I have trapped them as they are ejected and placed them in my shell bag.

Different strokes, and different chokes, for different folks.

Why would you ask that stupid question, Daryl? I mean,dang…
JR

For those who have an interest in Fox guns and have never read it, there was an article published in the DGJ in the year 2000 by Tom Kidd entitled "Why Buy A Fox Gun".

Good reading.

Since I started this tread just about every thing but Parker prices has been talked about! Now all you guys know but ''Won't'' admit that the average price for a Parker is to Much.
As for the best to the worst guns made, All guns are good on till they break down. Now we all know that Parker's keep gun smiths Eating Prime Ribs. They would Starve if they relined on other makes of
shotguns to break down. OK, They might get a little money brought in to pay for Cold Cuts.Even old Steven's M-335 Doubles hardly break down. Now with that being said I happen to own a A1-Special Parker Trojan
12ga. w/30in. barrels, Beaver Tail, and Pistol Grip, double triggers. The gun is in 99% Condition. Every screw is Perfect, timed all the same, the best stocking job, I REALLY LIKE THE GUN. Also 2/3/4in. chambers, and I DON'T
have to shoot Special Expensive RST OR OTHER OVER PRICED SHELLS IN IT. Why I could shoot short magnums in it and not worry about the stock cracking. It also is a #2 frame gun so has the steel to handle
any shells. As for Fox's, Just ask Teddy who made the Best Double shotgun, NO finer gun than a Fox Was ever Made!

Dirty Harry

The first post suggested the market for Parker guns was collapsing.

Now they are overpriced?

Things change fast here.

Nice trolling...but this is a shooting forum, not fishing.

When trolling, gotta go with what provokes the most reactions

Thaaaat's Harry.

Here's a 1927 20 gauge VH, 28". Admirable 99 year old original condition.
Perfect screws, DHBP. Just the way we like to find them.
Not rare but certainly scarce. North of 5K ?? What do you think?

Well I am glad all you ''Aces'' steered Me in the right direction, after reading all your comments, I '' May''
offer up My A-1 Special Parker Trojan for sale. I was told by some of the top Parker Brass they are Very Rare.
Most of them have never seen one. Glad to hear they are bringing a ''Obscene'' amount of money.


Dirty Harry

Best,
Ted

Nice gun, but clearly nothing compared to the one of a kind LC Smith executive Grade Lunchbox Special 29 1/2 gauge guns owned by the grandfather of a formerly prominent member here.

And one flew over the cuckoo's nest...
JR

South of $5K, IMO. Had it ejectors it would be closer. But, I may be projecting my personal bias into it. Hard not to do.

Very simple. All you need to do is buy it, and then resell it. Asking prices mean nothing. Actual results over time is all that matters... neglecting intangibles such as the cost and pleasure of ownership.

You will either break even, or make a profit, or take a loss.

Only then will you have the answer for just one gun. Do the same thing with a statistically significant number of Parkers, and we might actually have an idea if Dirty Harry is right or wrong about Parker prices and valuations.

I have a friend who is an FFL gun dealer. He told me that when he got into the gun business, an older dealer advised him to never fall in love with wood and steel... Buy low, and sell higher. That makes a lot of sense from a purely business standpoint. But most guys spend money on things like golf clubs, cars, boats, trucks, etc., and never give much thought to depreciation or attempting to get all of their money back after using those items.

I think it's often possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, and don't lose any sleep worrying about what my guns are sold for after I croak. I showed my daughter an MMC electric checkering tool several years ago, and asked her what she thought it was worth. She said, "I don't know... maybe $20.00." I then showed her a printout I had with it showing one that had recently sold on Ebay for nearly $800.00, and pointed out that it didn't include the Foredom 8D hand piece mine had. I then explained that it's important to know the value of things before you dispose of them, because there is always someone who will be happy to take advantage of ignorance.