doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lefever Bbl color?

Thanks to Dave M., most of Dr Gaddy's 'lost in internet and PictureTrail space' pics from that thread are up on the 'Damascus Barrels' album
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=16082038

I have also been told by many Lefever collectors that the English damascus barrels are browned and the Belgian barrels done in black and white. I don't know of any reason to contradict this, but, if the finishing work was all done in the U.S., I guess the color differences must have just been the customary finishes in Uncle Dan's shop. On the question of Whitworth barrels, I have a special order Lefever, with a mix of A grade and B grade engraving characteristics and Whitworth barrels. Except for the occasional special order gun, Whitworth barrels were an option only on Optimus Lefevers.

Richard B. wrote "I have also been told by many Lefever collectors that the English damascus barrels are browned and the Belgian barrels done in black and white."

Why - were they finished differently because of metal content or to make the higher grades stand out more from the lower grades? Did the English barrels go on the higher grade guns? Apparently some LeFever barrels have tube maker marks so you can tell where they were made?

Best,

Mike

Mike: I think this list is on the 'Damascus Explained' thread, and covers the maker's marks found on Damascus (not steel) barrels used by US makers. This does not include the Remington barrels, and we've yet to find a definitive Belgian mark on a Parker brl. The vast majority of raw tubes had the mark removed in the fit and finish process.

L.C. Smith: Bauduin Doyen & Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont
Baker: Charles Spirlet & Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse
Lefever: Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse & George Laloux
Fox: Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont
Ithaca (Flues): Heuse-Riga Fils
Colt Patent Firearms Mfg. Co.: Plunger-Riga & Heuse-Riga Fils

Three-lobed crown over a D - Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont of Nessonvaux Found on damascus Smith guns.
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20delcour%20dupont%20gb.htm

DD in an oval lying - Delcour-Dupont Jean de Fraipont-Nessonvaux
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20jobe%20t%20gb.htm

BD possibly the mark of Bauduin Doyen, a Nessonvaux damascus barrel and gun maker. Found on several Smith guns.

GDH- Gilles Delcour Herket de Fraipont

CC - Lucient Clement, also shows marks as CC AA & CC LC. On some guns made for Sears.

JP fused - J. Pire & Cie, on an "Etoile" pattern Remington Model 1894 Pigeon Trap http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pire%20gb.htm

J.L., usually on the wings of a ladybug, was one trademark for Joseph Janssen.
Jean Lejeune of Nessonvaux is known to have supplied 'Oxford Superfine' and 'Boston' damascus.

LD- Dumoulin-Lambinon (1860-1879) http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20dumoulin%20gb.htm
or L. Drion

Crown over GL in an oval - George Laloux - common on Lefevers with serial numbers 2XXXX range.
Bee with G L on wings after about 1910
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20laloux%20georges%20gb.htm

J J in an oval, two letters one with the top of the other and being separated from a horizontal bar and Crowned JJ.
Joseph Joiris of Nessonvaux http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20joiris%20gb.htm

H.R.F. of Heuse-Riga Fils http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20gb.htm On Ithaca Flues model

ADH and a diamond - Arthur-Delvaux-Heuse de Fraipont On Lefever, Syracuse Arms, and Baker

Crowned 'HL' - Plunger-Lemoine E.

HB could be Heuse-Bovy
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20gb.htm

SC with a crown over - possibly Charles Spirlet, who also used a Crown over CS and Crown over S. On a Baker

The 'browned' vs. 'black and white' finish has nothing to do with the damascus quality, and I won't go anywhere near who made the best damascus barrels

Drew thanks. The theory about the leFever Belgian being browned and the English being black and white is around. I just wonder why one would be finished differently than the other. Joe Wood and I had a phone conversation with Dale Edmonds about a W&C Scott Damascus barrel being oddly colored with no evidence of being redone. Anyway Dale said he has come across some English Damascus barrels that he couldn't get to take the right color and speculated that they were made in the 1880s by English tube makers and had different metal composition - more carbon I believe is what he said.

I hate to beat a dead horse - If the tube makers'marks are filed off then how do we know the barrels were Belgian or English. If the theory is true about LeFever Belgian barrels being browned and LeFever English barrels being black and white - why did LeFever do them in different colors?

Thanks again for taking the trouble to help me understand.

Best,

Mike

Mike: several guys are out there trying hard to identify generic damascus patterns (3 iron crolle) and specific named patterns (Oxford, Boston, Horse-shoe, etc.) Part of the problem is that there are so many variants of each crolle pattern. These segments are all Belgian, 2 iron crolle, 'browned' rather than 'black and white', and all with a different pattern



Some patterns can be identified as specifically Belgian (ie. I've not seen them on a British gun): Chain, Etoile (Star), Stars & Stripes or American Flag Bunting, Chine', Bernard, Leclerc, Pieper P (Remington.) It's probably safe to say that any 5- or 6- iron crolle is Belgian.
Other patterns are found on both Belgian and British brls: Horse-shoe, Boston (large scroll 2 iron crolle), Oxford (smaller scroll 3 iron crolle.
British Laminated Steel has several variants, but does indeed seem to be uniquely British.
The 'English Damascus' album has both 'browned' and 'black and white' patterns, and a couple that I have yet to identify (name) that could be uniquely British http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=18059733

Bottom line-the vast vast majority of brls used by US makers were of Belgian origin, and until we can confirm a uniquely British pattern, there may be no way to confirm the source of the barrels (which almost never have maker's marks.)

Mike,

There is a short answer for this what every Lefever lover knows... "Because when it comes to a Lefever, you can never be sure what to expect."

The colors are only an issue if you are having the barrel redone. Then it is your choice. Dale is great guy isn't he? I have enjoyed every conversation and learned a great deal.

I can give you another possible answer to Dale's about the colors "taking".

There was an change in the smelting industry that occurred. They moved from charcoal to coke. Coke produces problems. It introduces silicon and other trace elements to the metal. The Nessonvaux barrel makers had a decided dislike for coke smelting. We also know that the Belgian's were experimenting with various sources for the raw materials. They would also purchase from different smelters on occasion. Throw in the various rolling mills and you have a lot of steps / variables. It surprises me that Dale is able to work his magic at all given what he has to contend with...

We will never be 100% positive about all the barrel suppliers to Lefever or anyone else. We are operating from very slim evidence. A maker's trade mark here and there. Some times we can be sure of who the maker was by the mark. Other times, we simply scratch our heads and make a best guess until better evidence presents itself. If Uncle Dan kept records of all his suppliers, we have not been fortunate enough to find them.

The Lefever factory. The guy in back is busy grinding off the trade marks, just to confuse us.

Pete

Thanks for the reply PeteM.

When I started posting on this thread it was to determine the original color of my LeFever barrels. My purpose then switched to "Why did LeFever color Belgian and English Tubes differently." I can see now that my posts were very confusing and I appreciate everyone's help.

Thanks again,

Mike

No Mike, they were not confusing. You were asking reasonable questions. Hopefully we have all learned something along the way.

Here is the 1st part of 1976 article by Puraye. This is a condensed English version of his original work published in 1968. I have the original in French. Puraye is seminal to understanding. He can be considered the 1st of the modern researchers on the trade in damascus barrels. Absolutely everyone who has written on the subject lists him in their bibliography. Our knowledge has been enhanced since he published, but has not left him behind.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/tintype1/LeDamas/amr_4_76_p1.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/tintype1/LeDamas/amr_4_76_p2.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/tintype1/LeDamas/amr_4_76_p3.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/tintype1/LeDamas/amr_4_76_p4.jpg


Pete

Pete M thanks! On page 2 at the top of the third column it lists several ways barrels were finished. The one that interested me said that some were actually done in "dark brown". The barrels on my W&C Scott Premier Imperial are exactly that - dark brown. They haven't been redone so that may mean they are not discolored but that is the original color.

Cool!

Best,

Mike