doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "abeille"

Here's the last pieces I have time to offer before I switch to patents....

Beag, Don't forget to send a mailing address...

JC,
Here's Caunier page 15 that you requested (I've already posted 16. 17, 18, and 19)...all other pages are more conventional guns


George,

Just to let you know...I've probably owned (currently own or already horse traded for Belgian catalogs) about 25 French catalogs over the years...they're pretty hard to come by...almost everyone carried some sort of slider (Darne, Charlin, and a contract gun), Some even carried both Darne and Charlin but no contract gun, as can be seen in this Courty catalog...


Most catalogs show a contract slider...just as Rivolier sold the RPF slider...everyone had there own trade name it seems...It's highly unlikely that a company like Darne (who is already tooled to the teeth, and holds most of the patents) would allow these "clones" to dominate the market...unless it were to turn out that the arsenal at St Etienne or Chaterault actually produced all the rough actions to be finished by artisans across the region (including Darne) as they did with the St Etienne boxlock actions...

So it is possible....but...like I said before...Our collective knowledge hasn't yet reached that level of understanding...not even on the St Etienne boxlocks.....

My point is...I just assumed that Caunier had a business relationship with Charlin...why would anyone sell a Darne based gun while touting the prime competitors name on the same page?
Given how little we actually know about the Darne/Charlin evolution, I still say Charlin played a hand in the making of some of the one piece stocked guns...until someone show definitive proof otherwise...

This last photo is from another well known French supplier/maker Rouchouse...they call their gun "Le Wonder"...and you don't have to read French to know that double verrou means two locking points.

Beag, I hope you're reading this...because this is most likey what you have...a contract gun...probably, most likely a Darne (as Ted pointed out)...it IS NOT a knock-off or fake or "cheap copy" as many have suggested by labeling it a "clone"...anytime someone shows up with something these guys don't understand, they trash it...it's really nausiating the way they enjoy it so much....any Belgian gun that has no name is given a "used oats" label of "guild gun" even when the makers touchmarks are present on the barrels or action flats.

Pay no mind to the guys who downplay your gun...they trash anything they don't understand. Not 10 months ago, a kid showed up here (fishinghole I think) with 1 of 5 known "Marks Special" L C Smith trap guns with lots of case colors...they told him it was essentially some $150 piece of hardware store junk...he still doesn't know that he owns one of the rarest Smiths known...search it out at this forum, you'll see...fishinghole was his name (I think)




I may not be correct in my views of the French doublegun industry, but we will all find out together (about fixed shotguns (sliders))...one patent click at a time

Thank you. No info pertaining the "Queens". Only advertising a gun made by the Cauniers.

JC

JC,
To quote yourself..."Post 71542: "it's an old Caunier catalog that clearly shows what's currently accepted as a 1894 patent Darne but made by Charlin."

Who said that I accept the 1894 patent Darne concept? I was refuting it, not as though I knew it to be false, but from the perspective of a "Devil's Advocate"...all I wanted was some technical reasoning...or something to substantiate the concept...like a catalog or a book reference or insight from a real Darne collection...if you can't substantiate it...it's not a nugget.

Did you say that Cauniers actually made the gun on page 15? I can't read that...but that's definitely the St. Etienne boxlock action that I mentioned earlier...If what you say is correct, that would make Caunier a finishing house as well a vendor.

Beagle,
I know it's unlikely but we still don't know if the company "L'Abeille" used the trade name Abeille on their contract fixed guns or not...I've been trying wangle a L'Abeille catalog from a guy for a year and I may get it (he knows I have a 16ga)...if you stay in touch, it may shed some light on your gun...this is about the closest my info is going to get you in understanding your gun, but keep an eye on the new patent thread, for clues to your gun, as we dissect the fixed barrel evolution one click at a time

Great, now I want a Darne/Charlin/Regina/Abeill, whatever (French Backslider); and I haven't even satisfied my Manufrance Ideal fixation yet. Life was simpler when all I wanted to do was assemble a modest collection of low grade American classics...Geo

Well we're talking about French guns or at least pictures of same between outbreaks of paranoia and textual analysis. I think that's good, an alloyed good but still good. The stump drummer should be happy he's no longer a prophet without honour. The "gun scribe" should be happy to have a little companionship in the ivory tower. I guess I'm happy to have Buffalo Bob stir things a bit? It's so hard to tell sometimes.

jack

Well, I thought the page showing the 1894 Darne action, and the word Charlin looked familiar, and, it should have, since I have the same catalog-and, I was pretty much on the mark, the catalog is from a French retailer that sold both 1894 patent copies and Charlins.

I was told I was full of second round horse oats over it, as well. I expect I'll get over that.

Robert, you have made a very amatuer error in the above photo posting. The gun shown with the Charlin IS NOT a Darne.

When you own up for the above, I'll tell you who made the 1894 copy YOU believe is a Darne.

Hint-go to your junior high French book and look up the word "Fils".

By the way, calling a Darne 1894 copy a "clone" is NOT calling it cheap, or poor quality. It is simply acknowledging that the patent was owned by someone else. Wonderful copy guns exist, surpassing the quality of the originals, proof being the gold medal awarded in Lyon, in 1914, to the company that produced the copy illustrated in the photo Robert put up.

That is another hint, Robert. See what you can dig up. If you need help, I'll happily give you my once through the horse opinion, OK?

Beagledogxxx, if you have a stock for your gun, it should go to a good stockmaker, who can tell you if it can be saved. I don't know if you have a stock, but, you would truly be astounded at what a good wood guy can do with even shattered stocks, if he gets all the pieces.

While Robert is sure that they are simple guns to restock, some very good stockmakers over here refuse to have anything to do with them, for whatever reason. You won't be getting a stock job on a Darne from our own "crossed chisels", for example.


Good luck with your gun. Don't sink a lot of dough into it, though. And have a good gunsmith have a hard look at the barrels and action before you spend a penny on new wood. Kirk Merrington is your man for the mechanical exam, by the way.
Best,
Ted

Jack,
My apologies for the for the crap...It would have been so much easier if they would have allowed me to address Beagle's question 2 weeks ago...I would have still posted the same data...you guys would still have got the same data...

I waited...I gave them first, second, and tenth crack at addressing Beag's gun...they completely f'd it up...just like the Marks Special L C Smith guy went away with bum scoop...now I may misinterpret the data, but at least I base my answers on data rather than notions...you will never catch me passing bum scoop unless I believe it myself. You'll never see me apologize then insult the guy on the way out, as Larry has done to me.

To quote Ted...."Robert, you have made a very amatuer error in the above photo posting. The gun shown with the Charlin IS NOT a Darne."


Well EXCUSE ME...how foolish of me to lump Francisque (Darne Fils)with his father Regis...you got me again Ted...You're right... Darne Fils made guns are not Darnes at all...

Based on Ted's reasoning,if the guns made by the son of Regis are not Darnes...then Bruchets made half a century later are definitely not Darnes (don't quote me on this JC, I don't buy it myself)

Jack,
Are you catching this? Do you see why it's so difficult to answer anything directly? What's next? Maybe I misspelled another French word...maybe they'll get me on punctuation next...

I've scanned through all 10 pages of this thread and while I don't have a dog in this fight I would like to suggest we settle it the old fashioned way - a duel.

Better yet...take a vote on this new (latest)line of resistance to the transfer of information...How many think Ted is correct when he says..." The gun shown with the Charlin IS NOT a Darne"...???

If Ted wasn't simply running resistance, he would have offered it up in a manner that shows that he was actually contributing to the thread or understanding.... by saying...(for example) actually Darne Fils was somebody else trying to cash in on the Darne name...or something of the like...but that's not the case here...

Regardless of what they say...what they're trying to do is bitch their way into fixing it so you guys will get no Darne data unless they issue it to you...and anyone else who offers Darne data gets shredded, even for spelling errors...why else put up so much resistance? I already have the data...they're only trying to block the other readers from getting it...Why? Who cares where the info comes from as long as it's verifyable?
Verifyable...now there's a word to contemplate....