doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com old doubles and no lead lead shot?

The "lead ban" in SD isn't quite as widespread as some who haven't hunted there might be led to believe. For example, on "walk-in areas" (private land on which the state essentially leases hunting rights, totalling hundreds of thousands of acres), lead is OK. Likewise OK on the National Grasslands. So even if you're hunting land open to everyone in SD, you may be able to get by with lead shot--for the time being at least.

The comparison to the collector car market ignores completely how that market has changed. Circa 1979, a restored model A Ford convert was nipping at $50,000. Just a little heads up, but, someone who bought and paid that much for that car then has absolutely no hope of ever seeing that money come from that car again. They sell for about 12-15K in todays market.

What happened? Tastes, and times ,changed.

Yes, there will always be expensive and valuable old guns, but, as to what they will be, that is a different matter entirely. I doubt Colt Walkers will ever go down in value, but, that is a gun that doesn't see the light of day, much less use, to the average buyer.

A decent old double is a different animal.

I own but one gun that I feel can't see use with modern ammunition, and I don't have a fortune in it. I won't invest in any more guns that aren't usable with steel shot. My belief is that it wouldn't be prudent to my financial situation, and, I am not a collector of anything, save old girlfriends, and thats over too, since I got married.

There are quite a few guys here who buy guns they don't use. That isn't me, but, whatever. If that brings them joy, then what it is worth after the laws and the times change likely won't matter, to them. And, so be it.

I am NOT primarily a clay shooter, I am primarily a hunter. Knowing and preparing for what the future will hold, as a hunter, is no different to me then knowing the daily bag limits, the hours of legal shooting, and where to find the species that I pursue. I will use modern designs, with the shot that is available, and will learn how those combinations are best used to take the birds I hunt. There will be people that sit in their gunrooms, cigar smoke mixing with the smell of the scotch they have poured, lamenting over the new laws, and how it made their good guns obsolete.

But, I won't be there. I'll be hunting.

The future will hold different ammunition requirements. I am preparing for that. The DNR of my state has made absolutely no secret of it. Not a single gun that is/was ever in my possesion was ever too valuable or historic to be put to good use. Hence, putting money into buying or repairing the double of yesterday is all over at my house. Most of the serious 20 gauge people I know have put up stores of bismuth that fill good sized areas of their homes or shops with pallet loads of it, but, that is only going to hold off the future for so long.

In the future, you will use a 12 gauge gun to shoot clay pigeons or hunt birds. You will use steel, since the elements of the earth's crust that are near the atomic weight of lead are far, far more rare, and too expensive or strategic to use as shot. You will have learned that the 12 is just OK for use with steel to hunt birds, and the smaller gauges are just about useless when loaded with steel, save for very small birds, like dove or woodcock. On that note, woodcock will not likely be a legal gamebird in the future for different reasons, but, I digress.

If you are a hunter, I'd advise you prepare for it.
Best,
Ted

That is good to know, I have avoided SD public land since I read lead was banned on all public land. Thanks for that LB!

I don't think you're off the mark, Ted. I don't know how many shells other hunters use for a morning's gunning but whatever the cost non-tox is not going to stop me because wildfowling is one of my religions. It's making choices. If you want to run the roads, keep up with the Joneses, golf, curl, drink and smoke, eat-out, be a clothes horse, fine. This strayed Baptist boy can't afford those things and indulge in guilt-free gunning. I'm not planning to live forever.

Fellers, the main line of defense against these moves to disarm Americans through the back door is the National Rifle Association. They're the best avenue we have to prevent the gloomy predictions outlined in this topic. JOIN! if you haven't already.

Steel is not as bad as you think! Yes it is not as affectice as lead at long range, but if you are into testing your skills at decoying waterfowl rather than bragging on killing waterfowl by the numbers- you as a hunter/sportsmen are secure. I am just 54 years of age and have no fear of steel in my old guns. They may die with me along with true hunting. If I am very lucky I will have 20 years of real hunting remaining, maybe 30, but I doubt it. I'll buy a chrome lined double for my 13 year old nephew and pray he can use it till he is done. If the barrels of my Bakers, L.C.s and Merkels are shot out when I die they can throw them in the box with me. I'll go on up the trail with hope in my heart that coverts of grouse and wetlands with waterfowl are ahead. I am not going to worry about the resale value of anything I buy from this point on. As said, I hope the best for you young fellows. But, for the extra cost of steel, I would test my oldest gun to its limits just to let you know how it would stand up to it. If I get some notice that time is short I'll do it for sure. (won't have to pay the cable bill) I'll say it plain: I hate the man who thinks he's better cause he kills more for nothing more than killing. Game animals are more than targets, they are the members of the family that make hunting the greatest game. The cylinder choked flintlock smoothbore had less range than what we have become accustum to, but that is the standard we might want to test our skills against as hunters. And yes there are arguements for the 3&1/2" shell too?

Steve, Damn, I wish I could agree with you. Problem is, those states will just ban lead shot and folks will shoot steel or some alternative. The states will still have hunting as a resource. The lead shot is really only important to those of us with vintage guns. And, sadly we are a very small minority.

I own quite a few old guns. More than I can shoot that is for sure. I love them, each and every one. But, I think there might be a best time to sell most of them and it might be before too much longer. I wish to heck someone would figure out a way to manufacture bismuth or something similar cheaply.

Regards and Holiday wishes, Jake

Did you know they're still making sxs shotguns? Some even come with choke tubes. Why just the other day I have seen nice Franchi 'Highlander' for 2k.

I have been thinking about this a lot in the past week, so I decided to ask the question. I have REALLY thought about it in the past 24 hours. The more I think about it the more I feel like Ted. People talk about a few shots hunting, but I imagine in the not too distant future even shooting skeet at your house will require no-tox shot.

I thought the idea of Sherman Bell testing old stubes with steel was great! Does anyone know Sherman Maybe you could put a bug in his ear.

BUT, If we could get some hard tubes for sleeving that may solve the problem. Anyone know what range of steel is typically used old English and Continental doubles? What are the new tubes for sleeving made of? Can an older double with sufficient wall thickness be backbored and then have the bores chrome plated?

I'm not nearly as pessimistic about a blanket ban on lead. For one thing, it wouldn't hurt "just" hunters. You drop down below the 20ga, and steel shot simply doesn't make sense even for skeet shooting. So you'd be scratching 2 of the 4 "official" gauges in competitive skeet, the .410 and the 28. There's also a fair amount of small bore sporting clays going on now, and that makes even less sense than steel for skeet.

But with modern steel technology--especially improved shot cups--I think the issue remains more one of pressure than it does the steel pellets themselves, when you're talking damage to vintage guns. Assuming, that is, relatively open chokes. But the small bore guys would really be hurting, and of course the days of cheap plinking with a .22 would be over as well.

And I think the DNR's will get around to looking at the other side of the nontox issue, which is what it would do to hunter/shooter numbers. Their budgets rely on license sales, and on income from the PR tax on firearms and ammunition. Fewer licenses sold plus less revenue from firearms and ammo sale = less money going into DNR coffers. And they can do a lot more for the environment and wildlife with the money they'd lose than whatever gains would be seen from a lead ban.