doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Iron / Steel possible defiinitions

The "exotic" metals, along with several others, mentioned by 2-p are relatively common alloying elements in modern steels, especially the high strength types used in aerospace applications and in tooling. Nickel steel was one of the early major advances.

I don't know if 2-p worked directly with any of the cast you mentioned, but he worked in a facility that did have contact with such folks.

Raimey;
I was far enough down on the totem pole I did not really work directly with any of these gentlem. Wernher Von Braun in particular was a well known name at AEDC where I served my 4 year apprenticeship as a machinist, along with another 5/6 years. Most of my actual work there though was not directly model related, but general tunnel fixtures, maintenance, etc. The majority of my actual model work time was put in at a small civilian contractor shop. There I did do actual model work on a number of well known projects connected with the space industry, some classified, some not, so I normally to be safe simply do not mention them by name.

Let me add my $.02 cents in re: alloy steel. In 1905 Parker Bros. started inserting a hard (but not hardened) steel wear pad into the angle slot in the barrel lump were the toggel bolt held the barrel in place when the gun was closed. Before 1905 the bolt rode directly against the angle slot in the barrel lump resulting in the top lever going left with wear and consequent metal loss. The barrel lump could not be case hardened and, thus, the hardness of the bolt had to match the softness of the lump. One might ask why it took until 1905 for the gun works to figure out the simple solution to mitigate wear--a hard insert and a hard bolt. The answer: alloy--vanadium--steel. And here's the story I heard...

I was at the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh WI, talking to the guys from the Smithsonian who were recreating a replica of the Wright Bros ca.1902 aircraft. Keep in mind that the brothers Wright really didn't build a sustained-flight aircraft till 1908. In this context we discussed the radical changes in post 1905 engines being the charm, and how Henry Ford had been at an autocar race in France, and observed the taking apart of a new type engine with the crankshaft journals, connecting rods, wrist pins, cam and valve stems made of a new secret process alloy of steel. Vanadium Steel. The cat was soon out of the bag and vanadium steel became available in the USA. Ford's 1908 Model T would not have been reliable without vanadium steel engine hard parts; the Wright brothers would not have been able to fly for prolonged periods of time without the new alloy; and Parker Bros adopted the new technology to mitigate wear on the Old Reliable's breech-bolts.

Thirty years later when Remington bought Parker, the double-fit bone charcoal case hardening process was still "state-of-the-art" in Meriden. Meanwhile, Winchester 21s were of an alloy steel that could be single fit. Parkers had the case colors; Winchesters had the black funeral gun finish. Parkers and 21s are often compared, unfairly, I think. Parkers represent the metalurgy as it existed in the first days of crude flying machines barely getting off the ground; Winchester 21s are are of the post-Lindbergh era of trans-Atlantic flight. The metals, not the skilled gunmakers, made the difference. EDM

Maxchinery's Handbook;
"Vanaddium Steel ordinarilly contains from 0.16 to 0.25% vanadium. The effect of Vanadium is to increase the tensile strength & elastic limit, & it gives the steel the valuable property of resisting to an unusual degree, repeated stresses. Vanadium steel is ewspecially adapted for springs, car axles, gears subjected to severe service, & for all parts which must withstand constant vibration & varying stresses."
Chrome Vanadium alloys were given a 61xx SAE number. They would appear to be great alloys for a double "Frame". I personally can se no reason to associate them with the success of the Parker Bolt Plate.

Bit hard to consider Chro-moly and Vanaloy as belonging to the "unobtainium" category as hardly a quality bicycle tube has been drawn from anything else since WWII. Even Titanium as a "slopover" from commercial aircraft construction is everywhere--probably in your ballpoint and your spectables.

jack

jack rabbit:

You weren't informed that bicycle tubes of Chro-moly & Vanaloy were declassified after 1945? Many of the elements used to accomplish the Apollo missions were know elements which were not found in a pure state. Cobalt, goblin in German, for one is usually found w/ Bismuth and while you can go to the Grocery and in the Vitamin section and purchase some B12(basis for is Cobalt), I would venture to guess that if you attempted to purchase some high speed steels, hard metals or parts for a turbine engine in which cobalt is a requirement, that the availbility compared to B12 would be a little less. Noting a few, copper chloride, copper oxide, chromium, cadmium, gallium arsenide, germanium, hexavalent chromium(toxic stuff in computers), indium phosphide and silicon in a substrate or for doping, includes elements found say in a part of a penny or in the silicon paste used to seal your window panes, but they are somewhat different in application and concentration than those of the Apollo missions which was our tangent at the time. And now we are almost light years away from the materials used for the construction of Damascus tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I use end of WWII as a rough watershed, Raimey, cause I'm a rough sort of guy or roughly informed or something. I do think that there is usually pressure to find a use for surplus capacity of "exotic" materials after the usual wartime Keynesian debauche. You namedrop real good, I'll give you that.

jack

Raimey's quote from a Brit about Swedish steel merits some additional informations. From one mine, Dannemora, and adjacent mines with ore having same origin and very similar chemical composition, nearly all processed "mallable iron" (stångjärn) from select smelters/processers (Vallonska järnbruk) went to Sheffield in England for making steel used in watch springs, surgical instruments, and other highly value added insturments. Reason was basically very low content of slag. Given huge amount of effort to convert "mallable iron" to suitable steel and then to final product, having really low slag content in starting raw material was excellent way to reduce number of parts that failed final testing or had to be discarded along way because of minute slag inclusions.

This high quality "mallable iron" was much higher quality raw material than any other for about 200 years and Sheffield paid premium price for it. By no means was all Swedish stångjärn of similarly high purity. One of natural advantages of Dannemora iron ore was its low content of S and P, thanks to specifics of its geological origin. In addition, use of tree charcoal, instead of koke from coal, resulted in no S being added during processing of ore to iron/steel. Equally high quality iron from other sources had to await Bessemer technology, with its ability to "burn out" S and P, etc. impurities. Even so, technologies to reduce slag impurites and "other" granular impurities would remain an evolving and improving technology for decades.

Should anyone wish referenes, I can provide them, but, all are in Swedish,

Niklas

jack rabbit:


I may have dropped a few names, but I don't pen in abstractness or in obscurity, as when you attend an engineering or science learning institution that is in support of NASA, MICOM, ARDEC, etc., they will not let you out until you at least are able to pen down some of the names of basic elements of the components used in technology required by such agencies. I didn't get any credits in economics, but I did dabble in govermment with a hint of philosophy as an elective.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Niklas:

Very good indeed. I'm interested, but is there anyway to translate it? My Swedish is about like my Russian: I couldn't even order Vodka!! I'm trying to determine exactly what impact the Walloons had upon their arrival in Sweden at the mines.

Considering Dud Dudley's find as well as Abraham Darby's(smelting) refind of Dudley's find coupled with Henry Cort's(manufacture/processing) advances in puddling process made great advances in mallable iron.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse