doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Iron / Steel possible defiinitions

Raimey,

I will have to think a bit about how best to present some useful informations in English. There is MASSIVE amount of stuff in Swedish and this is not techincal area where I am very compentent translator.

In brief summary, I can say that Valloner are an important part of total "equation", but, so is chemical composition of Dannemore ore and simple fact that they used tree charcoal instead of coal coke (lots of trees in Sweden, but not much coal). One must also mention important roll of leading Valloner, DeGeer's extended family especially, that had extensive business connections in Europe and England, as well as huge financial reserves (financiers to Swedish kings). Consider that priveliged relationship of DeGeer lead to Valloner having major roll in processing Dannemora ore, that DeGeer and other Valloner had excellent business connections with Sheiffield, that järnbruk (iron processors) were a major engine in Swedish foreign exchange economics and world power status (long ago - 1600s, 1700s, into 1800s). One järnbruk, Leufsta, was ordered to become showplace where Swedish king could bring foreigners to impress them.

Maybe if you say what you are most interested in, I can find something specific and small enough that translation will not be big job.

Niklas

Niklas:

You are very correct in the use of charcoal as being the prefered method for smelting and processing for tube steel. England tried using charcoal only and it started a massive deforestation project. I believe it was Henry Sharp, a self purported surgeon, didn't like English steel and went to France to procure or process iron. At the monment, my interest lies in info about the Catalan forge/furnace, Sir Henry Bessemer's furnace or Lancashire furnace in Sweden? When did they begin with the Catalan and when did they update to new technology via a new furnace? Also, any dates or info on barrel making at the mines or at the Catalan forges? Swedish steel was noted to seem to be almost void of sulphur and phosphorus. But I believe that Bell attributed a hint of maganese to the steel's demand?

Belgian Walloons(?) and Valloner have the same origin, are the same folk?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Valloner were from country of Vallonia, now part of modern Belgium. They first went to Sweden in early 1600s. Families that were very much into iron making in Vallonia had extensive linkages of family ties, giving business relationships from mines to markets in Amsterdam, etc. Ongoing wars in late 1500s - early 1600s made business very risky because iron products were stratigic materials, from nails for ships to armaments. DeGeer and others went looking for quieter, more stabile location to do business.

Note that what I know is generally restricted to the "Uppland" area of Sweden, generally north of Stockholm. Other parts of Sweden also had iron mines but, not so famous until rather recent times -- Kiruna, for example.

I don't recall anything called "Catalan forge/furance". Valloner used a "double hearth" system that produced iron with less slag than that from "Germain, single hearth" forges. It also used less energy (charcoal). I only know of one järnbruk that switched to Lancashire furnace - Karlholm, about 1880. Last day of operation was 21 September 1932. That Lancashire furnace remains today and I have visited it.

There was no barrel making at mines, not that I have heard or read of. Different järnbruk had allocations of how much iron ore they could take each year from specific mines. Järnbruk were located at sites having adequate water power and forest for charcoal. Yes, deforestation was a concern and some järnbruk were rather far from mines.

There were various, specific locations where weapons were made, as well as other strategic items, anchors, for example, were exclusively made at Strömsberg. Carl Gustavs Stad was a major arms manufacturing location -- don't recall immediately when it was founded.

Very low S and P are hallmarks of Dannemora iron ore, which often also had nice amount of Mn, leading to early, natural alloys. As you can understand, speficics of Dammemora iron ore allowed smelting processes of 1500s-1600-1700-early 1800s to produce some superior irons and steels. Later, techniques to willfully purge impurities, to add desired amounts of C and Mn, etc. were developed.

So much for moment.

Niklas

PS: Edited some dates, which I had consistantly made one century too early. Hopefully, noone was using those dates.

Pig iron was the immediate product of smelting iron ore, charcoal or coal and limestone. It was called pig iron because the forms it was poured into were called pigs.
I would not necessarily call a bloom an impure mass. It contained enough iron silicate to become wrought iron with forging. Pig iron had to have slag containing iron silicate added to become wrought iron.

Niklas:

You wouldn't have a pic of the Lancashire furnace, would you? A recent post by PeteM showed a dual bellow device, but I think it was for a single forge/furnace. If there was hydrologic power available, fuel and furnace, all elements were there for barrel making. So, would a Jarnbruk the same as an Osmund furnace in Sweden? And was a Jarnbruk similar to Stuckofen or a Blauofen in Germany? Thanks so much for your time.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

On assumption that by "Osmund furnace" is simply ment crude furnaces used in 1400s-early 1500s to in Sweden make "osmund", that is, chunks of "pig" iron, then NO. Järnbruk (I been using swedish word cause it is easier to type) is simply an enterprize where iron ore is converted into "stångjärn" (long, heavy iron bars that were form of raw, mallable iron for selling to factories making it into products). Most high-quality stångjärn was sold abroad. Vallonska järnbruk used specific, two-hearth processes unique to Valloner. Other major type of hearth was "German", which used only one hearth, produced poorer quality iron and used more energy doing so.

Again, järnbruk in Uppland province were separate from locations where their output, that is, raw, mallable iron, was made into final products. Final product from Lancashire furnace at Karlholm järnbruk was walzed (rolled out) iron bars about 2 cm thick, maybe 10 cm wide and 2-3 meter long.

I know nothing of activities and names in Germany. I like Sauer and Merkel guns, and some German ammunitions. That's it.

Somewhere I have digital photo of Lancashire hearth at Karlholm. Will look for it. Major advantages of Lancashire hearth were lower cost to produce iron and faster production rates.

Niklas

Niklas:

Bell refers to the Osmund furnace as being in Sweden. And his whole book is about iron production at lower costs and faster production rates. But just like the term "Osmund furnace" in one sentence turns into volumes of research because he may have known of what he was referring to, but he was a little lax in his descriptions. It will take a little bit to process your info. What as the name, German or Swedish, of the German hearth?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Swedish name of "German hearth/furnace is Tysksmedje, literally, Germain Smithy. "Osmund" is generally referred to in Swedish sources as probably a Nederlandsk jargon word. Making of "osmund" was widely displaced by Tysksmedje, especially for commercial, export production, in 1400s.

I almost never read stuff in British English. Stick to American English, but mostly to books in Swedish and somewhat less in Russian. I neither read, speak or understand German.

Niklas

Niklas,

You are filling in some gaps that I did not even know existed. Your account of the low country Walloons (Wallon in French) migrating to Sweden makes a lot of sense to the later damascus trade. Sweden has the luxury of endless forest, unlike England. English forest was lost to building ships. So in addition to the quality of the iron the charcoal smelting was preferred by the damascus makers of Belgium.

I knew about dannemora iron and also oregrund iron. I have assumed they are one and same, that Oregrund is just the port. Is this correct?

Also, have you read much about the Russian sporting arms trade? I know they were producing damascus barrels, but have never seen one.

Pete

Pete,

Öregrund was one of many ports that had scales for weighing iron before it was shipped further. Öregrund port was used heavily by Forsmark Järnbruk, which is one of major Uppland järnbruk. Forsmark is one of Vallonbruk, using iron ore from Dannemora.

Because järnbruk (iron ore processing factories) using Dannemora iron ore were scattered rather widely over Uppland Provence (to take advantage of good sources of charcoal and water power), they shipped their iron rods (stångjärn) to nearest water route, from which it was further shipped to a port having scales to weigh iron rods, and finally loaded on to large sail-driven boats for delivery to foreign buyers. Major port for such final shipping was Stockholm, with Göteborg (Gothenburg) another.

I have yet to see any reference to Vallon iron being sold to makers of Damascus barrels. However, all books I have read focused on major business connections for Vallon iron, that is, with Sheffield. One listing of major markets for Swedish iron of all types, by region, for 1738-1799 shows Nederland (todays Belgium?) never more than 10%, Brittan 48-62%, Baltic lands 15,5% to 22,5%, Latinsk lands, foremost Portugal, took 10%-32% of Sweden's total production of iron rods (only part of which was Vallon iron). Brittan took even larger percentage of Vallon iron production.

Please understand that there is much more to Swedish iron production that what I am familier with, which is currently Vallon iron produced from Dannemore iron ore. For example, one tally of järnbruk in 1720-1820 lists 227, with only 14 in Uppland.

Here is list of järnbruk that had right to take ore from Dannemora in 1749. Leufsta, Österby, Gimo, Forsmark, Strömsberg, Åkerby, Elfkarleby, Söderfors, Schebo, Ortala, Harg, Wattholma, Gysinge, Iggesund, Ljusne.

Iron processing at järnbruk consisted of smelting to get "pig" iron and then smithing/stretching to reduce slag and voids, to "work" crystal structure, and to produce final rods. Large hammers, generally water driven, were used.

I am happy to search books I have for additional informations.

I have never read much about Russian sporting arms trade. Have only one old book in Russian about hunting guns and reloading.

Niklas