doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Iron / Steel possible defiinitions

What 2-Piper "personally can see no reason" for is limited by his inquery into the subject. If 2-Piper would simply look at some Parker advertising he would "see" the gun works describing their use of Vanadium Steel for certain parts that took the most wear, including the breech bolt and wear plate. This is called case-on-point research.

I have been clipping Parker advertising for 20 years and have more than 300 ca.1868 thru late-1930s ads in my collection. These give some insight into what Parker thought was important at any given point of time. And what's surprising is that the breahthrough Vanadium Steel wear parts that started appearing in 1905 were not touted until the 1920s, pehaps a reflection on what customers preceived as being important. Starting in 1923 the gunworks started picturing "...certain less apparent features..." (Hunter, Trader, Trapper Feb.1923). Thus began a series of ads showing the top lever, which cammed against the Vanadium Steel breech bolt and, of course, had to be of like hardness.

August 1923, National Sportsman, pictures the barrel stop that encircles the hinge pin. April 1925, the breech bolt and wear slug are the topic(Outdoor Recreation); and Sept. 1925, Outdoor America, the "Super strong cocking hook...is of chrome vanadium steel..." These ads--some mentioning "tool steel" generically, others specifically identifying Vanadium Steel--are for all to see if they would only look. But it's not easy.

Sometimes highly motivated researchers like myself try to give others the benefit of our hard-earned information; we write magazine articles and books that have to be peer reviewed and get past editors who demand provenance and attribution. Of late some researchers add our 2-cents to Internet sites like this. Perhaps 2-Piper can give us the benefit of his source(s) for posting--as a counter-point--what he personally can see no reason for, thus implying his gross lack of information somehow trumps well-thought research on the exact topic. Steven Colbert calls such personal-knowledge-based belief "truthiness"--knowledge gleaned from the gut and not from reading. EDM

Niklas,

Puraye in "Le Damas", 1966, first mentions Swedish iron. Stating it was being used by the Belgians for horse shoe nails, circa 1810-1830. They used these in their damascus barrels of the period.

Claude Gaier in "Cinq Siecles d'Armurerie Liegeoise", 1997, talks about the transition from charcoal fired smelting to coke. He states that the Nessonvaux barrel makers found the Swedish iron to be a good replacement.

I believe Elgood in "Firearms of the Islamic World" , 1995, also mentions Swedish iron in connection with damascus barrel production in Europe.

I know that Bessemer use Swedish iron in his original experiments, because it is free of phosphorous. Later he worked out a way to "burn it off" by adding lime. (Some one correct me here.)

Thanks for the information. It is really helpful. If you run across any more, please share it. I do not read Swedish

Pete

Interesting site regarding the migration of the Walloons to Sweden from 1580 until about 1690, but esp. c. 1620
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/HUGUENOTS-WALLOONS-EUROPE/2000-04/0956199264

Well Mr EDM, as I approach 70 yrs old in a couple of months, one thing I have learned if nothing else is the least effective way of learning useful information is to "Read Advertizing". I once read "Advertizing" in the gun magazines about an "Amazing" new method of making shotgun bbls, which was done on machinery costing "Millions" of dollars, but it created bls of such superior quality to the old method, they were willing to "Spare No Expence" to give the customer the best possible bbl. I then had opportunity to read an article in a machining "Trade Magazine" where this exact same co wrote an article explauning how their "New Method" of building shotguns was saving them "Bunches of Money" due to increased production ""&"" by alloying them to "USE LOWER GRADE STEeL" while Mainting the "SAME QUALITY" of bbls. Except for the fact they carried the same Co name one simply would not have recognized the two different prospective viewpoints as applying to the exact same bbls.
I repeat, I see Absolutely No Reason the Parker Bolt plate needed to "Wait" on the development of Vanadium Steel. A piece of SAE 1070 should have sufficed quite well. One wonders why Parker continued to use a low carbon, case-hardened steel for action bodies, while Bragging so about a "Superior Steel" for the bolt plate. Since you got personal, Just To set the record straight, while you were reading & writing, I was busy "Cutting Steels" of many various alloys & also was engaged in classroom work on the various grades & heat-treatments of such, but written by people other than Advertizing Specialists.
Now understand I am not saying the Vanadium steel was Bad to use there, I am just saying there were plenty of steels capable of giving good service for the purpose prior to it. It was undoubtably co-incedence the bolt insert idea was conceived about the time they began using some V-steel & Advertizing then made a big deal of it's use which was really immaterial to the final results for that particular part.
Interestingly enough I have a couple of 100+ year old guns (Not Parkers) which have no inserts, no wear compensating angles cut into the bolts, Top Levers designed to siomply stop at center & both are tight & on face & both appear well used.

Pete,

Thanks for those informations! I can, sorta, maybe still read techincal French, if I really gotta. Are there any specifics about where in Sweden the Swedish iron came from? If it was used first for horseshoe nails, it must be from any of many järnbruk that did not use Dannemora iron ore.

Should I understand your second paragraph as meaning that Swedish iron, processed using tree charcoal, even though the iron ore was not from Dannemora, was as good as what they had been using in Liege region? I thought that by 1800s forests in Nederlands had long been so depleated as to no longer be used much for charcoal and that coal coke had been used for decades, or longer.

I shall have to look for good books about Bessemer's work! FYI, one of natural advantages of Dannemora iron ore was its content of Ca minerals, thanks to its interaction geologically with limestone deposits. Will need to reread some stuff to be certain, but, seem to recall that Si and Ca rich slag can be very good at reducing content of P. Think also, if I read again with more focus on chemical properties of slag produced/used in Vallonsk smelting, I will learn that this slag was also important in producing high quality mallable iron from Vallonsk järnbruk.

This has been a broadening thread for me. May have to start askiing some authors what they know of use of Swedish mallable iron to produce materials for Damascus barrels. I do know that Husqvarna got lots (most?) of Damascus barrels they used from Belgium.

Happy to share, especially when it is such a two-way exchange!

Niklas

Niklas,

Unfortunately, the writers talking about damascus barrels often neglect to cite sources for Swedish iron when they mention it.

Puraye is talking about the early 1800's when he writes about the horse shoe nails. There are a lot of references in the English literature to using of horse shoe nails for making twist barrels. When tracking those references I finally found a steel/iron price sheet. The English were purchasing the nails directly from the mill because of the low cost. I believe this was a common practice from country to country.

There is a disagreement between Puraye and Gaier about overcoming the problems of coke smelted iron. Puraye, quoting Heuse-Limone in 1884 says they tried Swedish iron but had problems during etching. Apparently they could not produce strong patterns and preferred iron from "Mineur et fils of Couver" for damascus work. I have to ask myself if Heuse-Limone is being totally open and honest here. He knows the French and English will be reading this.

Gaier simply states that the barrel makers became obsessed with finding charcoal smelted iron and turned to Swedish iron for a solution. He also states they kept seeking sources for the product.

My take is that both are talking about late 1800's. At this point in time, the barrel makers will use any charcoal smelted iron they can find that will meet their price point. Puraye says that they simple brushed on sulphuric acid to bring out the pattern. I have spoken to Dale Edmonds about this. While the pattern will appear, it will not last. He thinks it was done to check the quality of the damascus work. If found suitable then a better etching method would be used.

You can find Gaier in English, but expensive. He wrote 4 Centuries early on with 5 Centuries being a later update. The English versions are not the best translations. Puraye translated a small portion of his work and published in the American Rifleman, April 1976 & May 1976. I have promised myself to translate all of "Le Damas" this year. When it is finished, I will post here and make it available.

Sasche has reproduced damascus barrels. I do not recall if he discussed the smelting of the iron or not. I will have to check.

We are all still learning here...

Pete

Bearing surface materials do not have to be of equal hardness. Soft materials can, in fact, work just fine if of proper design and lubrication. Soft on hard brings up the issue of grit embedment in the soft material. Hard on hard is best, provided the fitting is well done. Hardened and tempered plain high carbon steel makes a mighty fine bearing surface.

Did Parker use any special steel alloys for hinge pins of hooks? Those show wear far mor often than do locking bolts and lump bites.

Pete,

There is one book in Swedish that contains much material originally in French. That book is: Valloner -- järnets människor by Anders Floren and Gunnar Ternhag. Gidlund Publishing House, ISBN 91-7844-3334. It contains many references in French and English. Here are a few.

Andre, G. 1966, "Les Wallons en Suede." Au pays des riezes et des sart, Nr 28, pp 285-293.

Bogaert-Damin, A. 1967. La metallurgie dan le Namurois. 1764-1814. Etude economique et sociale. Louvain: Universite catholique de Louvain (unpub doctoral thesis).
and
Bogaert-Damin, A. 1977. L'industrie du fer du XVIe siecle a 1815. Paris

Some in English too.
Eklund, Å, Evans, Chris & Ryden, Göran 2000."Graffin Prankard and Francis Jennings in a network of goods and capital. The Anglo-Swedish iron trane in first half of eighteenth century." Paper presented at Fifth International COnference on Urban History, Berlin, 2000.

Evans, Chris & Ryden, Göran 1988. "Kinship and transmission of skills: bar iron production in Britain and Sweden, 1500-1860. Technological Revolutions in Europe. Berg, M & Bruland, K. (eds). Cheltenham: Edvard Elgar. pp 188-206.

I will look through reference lists in a few other books for possibly useful citations. Perhaps some of these will provide you a reference trail with useful new informations.

Niklas

Niklas,

Thanks, I will track them down.

I found this:

"Foreign Trade–Transfer-Adaptation: The British Iron Making Technology on the Continent (Belgium and France)", Rainer Fremdling, University of Groningen
http://www.ggdc.net/pub/gd55.pdf


Pete

Thank you Rocketman; You have stated in a few words What I was trying to say & used a page of prattle.