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Jul 28th, 2025
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,092 Likes: 380
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,092 Likes: 380 |
ssw:
Mr. Parsons, of Birmingham, England is who W.W. Greener gives credit/patent of the chopperlump. There was a simple V-shaped lump, a Dovetail lump which Greener notes will still hold if there is imperfect brazing, then to offset the portion cut-away by the Dovetail, Greener developed a solid steel lump fitting between the barrels, Parson's chopperlump and Greener's last edition of the lump on one barrel, as he prefers the right, which has a "strong dovetail" 3" long and the left barrel is brazed to the right with the lump.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 12
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 12 |
400 Nitro Express is quite correct, best guns were built with dovetail, through-lump and chopper-lump barrels. Austyn, in "Modern Sporting Guns" [1994 edition. page 19] states, . . ."it is common to find Boss, Holland & Holland and Woodward guns with dovetail lumps. Other makers would have used either method in their best guns, presumably according to the financial restrictions of their customers." I have owned both Boss and H&H guns of 1893 to 1908 vintage with dovetail lumps, both certainly "best" guns. Apparently only later did chopper-lump construction assume the somewhat magical [even festishistic?] status the term seems now to enjoy as a descriptor in the best gun lexicon. Bert Dunn
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
Member
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Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 433 |
I have read that, for best guns made during the damascus barrel era, chopper lumps would not have been possible, because damascus is insufficiently hard to resist wear on the bites and hook. (And also because the lumps couldn't be fabricated by winding the barrels around a mandrel?) How were damascus barrels fastened to the lumps? Brazing? Dovetail? Most were probably dovetail. Ask CrossedChisels about chopper lump damascus. Sometime back he mentioned having worked on a gun (Purdey I think) that had them. Was there a transition period during which some best guns still used dovetail lumps and others chopper lumps? Not sure that there's any firm date. By observation though, best guns with dovetail lump barrels don't seem to have been particularly unusual up through WWI. I have also read that chopper lump barrels are themselves a compromise, because the steel characteristics that are ideal for the barrel tubes are different than the steel characteristics that would be ideal for the lumps, in that the barrel steel needs to be more resilient, while the lumps should be harder. True, at least in theory. The British auction report in the latest DGJ mentions that Boss has rebarrelled some of its guns using dovetail lumps. Some were originally built with dovetail lumps. While this would save the need to fabricate and fit the lump area, it would require cutting and fitting the dovetail. I wonder how much labor is saved? The cost savings is in the blank, not the labor, chopper-lump blanks being more expensive. It appears that some older best guns could have original dovetail lump barrels. Champlin's has a Holland Royal Ejector on their site now, built 1912, with original 20 bore Paradox dovetail lump barrels.
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,250
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,250 |
Thats what these boards are all about - we can take what was gospel and throw it out the window.
...and just because, someone has, or has seen a best gun with dovetail barrels.
We can re-write history now gentlemen, to hell with those musty old books that tout chopper-lump barrels.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,250
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,250 |
Chuck, "originalitis" is right out of the American gun purist handbook. We English shooters have always been happy with barrels re-blacken, and lightly refreshed guns.
It is you guys, who live in the culture of the unturned screw.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
I am the only person I've ever heard of to have a dovetailed lump fail. I have a pair of 1921 Charles Hellis game guns that are "as good as" it gets. They have dovetailed lumps. The #2 gun failed on the 8th shot (2 1/2" 1 oz CIP shells) of being in my posesion - I had just shot four targets off skeet station #2. The issue was a "cold joint" in the braze of lump to barrels. There was only a tiny spot that had originally joined and you could clearly see the fracture's progress. The gun made a trip to Birmingham and is now in regular use.
The experience left no lingering doubts in my mind as to the utility of dovetailed lumps - they are fine by me. Chopper lumps may be considered the "standard" today, but there are many best guns that came OE with dovetailed lumps. If you are going to shoot older "best" guns, then you need to get past an hang-up that only chopper lumps will do. As of yet, we have no idea how long dovetailed barrels, damascus, and/or early fluid steel can be shot - it looks to be a very long time.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,462 Likes: 89 |
What made Charles Hellis guns...."as good as it gets" the chopperlumps ? Have yOu abandoned the Sterlingworth. Here's sOme Lumps... http://www.hallowellco.com/lumps.htm
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
The Hellis guns have dovetailed barrels. They are "as good as it gets" because they have best design, materials, and workmanship throughout. [img] http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php/photo/535556/ppuser/30711[/img]
Last edited by Rocketman; 01/09/08 09:28 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 937
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 937 |
SO, chopper lumps = intergral locking lugs ..... back to ignoring British technical jargon.
Niklas
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,160 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,160 Likes: 3 |
"Best Guns" is a social, marketing ploy out of London after the turn of the eighteenth century.
The phrase does tend to connote a gun stocked to the fences, chopper lump barrels and no through lumps.
Best guns prior to that period were known to not be all of those.
This is well-documented for Boss, Purdey, Woodward and H&H.
Crossed Chisels will no doubt be along to help us with this non-issue.
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