doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Let's Play Spin the Parker

RR - no, you are not "wrong." However, it is handier to measure to the (front) trigger. Balance is used to determine how the weight is proportioned between the hands. The trigger is to one place you must for sure touch. So, we have an immediate reference for hand placement by using the trigger. You can reference anywhere you want on the gun, but it only adds an unnecessary step in getting to hand reference. Hand to hinge pin/breech face/trigger guard/etc. is not fixed and adds error to comparing balance measurements among guns. Check this for yourself by measuring trigger to hinge pin and trigger to breech face on several guns.

"Whippy" and "sluggish" are judgemental and hard to deal with. However, I'd say most people find guns with unmounted swing below 1.1 going toward whippy. Guns above 2.0 are starting to be sluggish. My darlin' NID 4E trap gun (32" bbls and 15 5/8" LOP) weighs in at 9# 2 oz, balances at 5 1/2" to the single trigger, unmounted it swings 2.95, mounted at 11.73. I prefer to think of its swing as "Stately!"

Don, I agree that quantitative measurements make sense and give a much better representation of a gun you don't have between your hands. However, things like weight, LOP, and drop are relatively easy to measure--and most dealers provide them. Some (but not enough) also provide minimum barrel wall thickness. Some, via photos, show proofmarks. (I wish they all would!) But I haven't seen any yet that have started using your system--at least in part, I'm sure, because they aren't capable of measuring the swing values. (Same reason some of them don't provide wall thickness measurements.) If they ever start doing that, I expect more buyers will begin to take a more detailed interest in your system.

This is one of those "push-you-pull-me" situations. People don't demand that information, so dealers don't supply it. People don't demand it because they don't see it and don't realize how much better gun shopping is when you really know what you are looking at. Weight, balance, drop, LOP, and pitch are easy. Cast, MOI, barrel wall thickness, bore diameter, and choke constrictions take a little more doing.

To give credit where it's due, Champlin Arms gives everything except MOI, along with good photos (but not of the barrel flats).

Don, I'm not the quantifying sort but I recognize a "moron" gun when I swing it (Moron the ends LOL). Is HWR recorded in inches. You are very assiduous about adding " to LOP meansurement but omit on HWR. If a gun has an HWR of 10.35, does that mean that half its wgt. is concentrated in 20.7" of its length somewhere roughly in the middle?

jack

People not understanding something does not minimize it's value. This is pioneering research, a serious and important contribution to the hobby. Collectors need not apply, this info is only of use to shooters.

To get the ball rolling on this, the stats for commonly available guns could be published. A selection of target O/U guns, some SxS guns that can be purchased new and available in a large dealers rack, and even some common trombones and autoclackers. Go handle the guns, shoot some that belong to others, and you can start to correlate the measured values with what you prefer in a gun for a specific use. Your trap gun will not measure the same as your quail gun.

Don's system is not complicated, and should interest any serious student of shotguns.

Don, or Blackadder,
Would it be possible to print the SSM article? or update the said article.
For those of us who poo poo this ground breaking technology, hang on to your mirth a little while.I can remember 'fieldsmen' sniggering at Garwoods articles and suggesting he ought to spend his time on something useful.
It would be interesting to know the numbers for a 'standard' Krieghoff K80 ( not one with titanium add ons)Sporter.Then compare the numbers against a Ceasar Guerini.
I know these two models of gun should have no place on this site but in my experience they do represent two guns at extreme opposites of the scale.
How many of us have trial mounted a gun and said " I could shoot that" not knowing why, it just feels good between the hands and in the shoulder.
Don's technology could quantify that 'feeling'.

Keiegoff K-80 Sporting 12 ga, 30" bbls, LOP 14 1/2", weighs 8.75#, balances at 5 3/4" to trigger, unmounted swing 2.60, mounted swing 10.34, HWR is 11.74. In words, the gun is very heavy, has forward balance, has high effort (slow) swings, and its weight is not compacted near the balance point as shown by the larger HWR number.

I don't have a Ceasar Guerini in the data base at this time, but will make it a mission to add one similar to the K-80.

But, I can add this gun. Perazzi MX8 O/U BLE 12 ga, 30" bbls, LOP 14 3/4", weighs 8.47#, balances 4 1/2", unmounted 2.68, mounted 9.47, HWR 12.11. In words, a very heavy gun with central balance, high effort (slow) swings, and non-compact weight distribution.

Comparison of the two guns. Gun purpose, barrel length and LOP similar. K-80 is 4 1/2 oz heavier - noticable. The difference in balance (1 1/4") should be very noticable. Only a person sensitive to unmounted swing would notice the 0.08 difference. The difference in mounted swing (0.87) should be very noticable; the difference is due to the P-gun's lighter weight and more rearward balance.

Is this kind of information helpful/useful?

HWR quantifies "moron" guns. Actually, HWR is the radius at which the gun's concentrated weight would produce the measured MOI. It is in inches and I will start to add that dimension. It is useful as a comparison among guns as to the individual guns' weight distributions. Guns below 10" will have lower MOI than the weight suggsts. 10" to 11" is typical. Above 11" and you have a "moron" gun. Those who shoot clay targets like "moton" guns as witnessed by the HWR's of the K-gun, P-gun, and NID-gun posted here.

Does that do it, or do you need some additional explaination?