Originally Posted By: jack maloney
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
...this one is also backed up by facts and data from foreign countries:
1. Most foreign countries have stricter gun laws than the United States.
2. The homicide rate in those countries with stricter gun laws is significantly lower than in the United States.


I am appalled to see such ignorance posted here as "fact"! This is a 'post hoc' fallacy of the far Left, which is not supported by facts according to Guns & Ammo magazine: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/second_amendment/rk0405/

In contrast, the facts I have provided here on universal health care come from recognized, legitimate published sources, to which I have provided convenient links for verification.


Ignorance, Jack? Fact? You reference an OLD study (1997) in which the author seriously cherry-picks his examples: Brazil, Cuba, Lithuania, Mexico, Russia, Trinidad and Tobago . . . please, Jack, give us a break! Which of those countries have universal health care plans you want to hold up as models? Let's try apples to apples, Jack: same countries you've SPECIFICALLY mentioned as being at the top as far as health statistics go, and/or countries where you claim "personal experience" with their system. So . . . UK, France, and Italy. And let's move ahead to 2004, the most recent year for which I can find good data on worldwide murder rates per 100,000. In 2004, the US was actually a good bit better than cited in the article: only 5.5 murders per 100,000. Compared to Jack's models of universal health care:
France: 1.64
Italy: 1.23
Scotland: 2.56
England and Wales: 1.62
Now let's move on, to the rest of Western Europe, where I'm sure Jack would agree most of the best universal health care is available. All figures are either from 2004 or the most recent year available:
Worst rate: Portugal, 1.79.
Best: Norway, 0.78.
So . . . the US murder rate is 3 times the WORST murder rate in Western Europe (except Scotland--bloody Scots!) and 7 times the LOWEST murder rate.
You can even throw in the former Iron Curtain countries. Albania is the worst, at 5.68--and the only country in Europe west of the former Soviet Union with a murder rate higher (but barely) than the US. Then you drop down to Bulgaria (3.08), down to Poland with a former Iron Curtain low of 1.64.

Jack, I certainly hope your research on universal health care is better than the piece of outdated garbage you chose to refute my demonstrably accurate statement about stricter gun laws and lower homicide rates--ESPECIALLY SO WHEN APPLIED TO THE SAME COUNTRIES YOU WISH TO HOLD UP TO US AS HEALTH CARE MODELS.