doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Status of Bismuth Shot?? Any Info.

If you make your own shot out of Bismuth and tin I doubt that there will be any problems with the USF&W Service. Once something is approved, that is good enough for the government. Bismuth shot was sold for reloading so they know that you can load your own shell with the approved shot. They would have to prove that you were making your own and that it did not measure up to specs. If you use only Bismuth and tin you should be safe as they have already approved it once. Just do not be stupid and mix in lead or just use straight lead and claim it is bismuth as one fellow I know tried.

I had Federal game wardens pickup wads in our field and claim that we were using lead shot at geese. To prove them wrong all I had to do was let them select one of my shells and open it for them to see that it had Bismuth shot and a regular wad, like the ones they had recovered, which could have been used for lead. I did offer them the bismuth shot so they could have it analyzed, but they declined.

I read the USF&W approval of bismuth. It just approves bismuth 97% tin 3% and less than 1% trace lead. I would want a certification from a supplier stating that the bismuth alloy met that standard. If you could find a supplier that could provide the correct alloy and the ability to make spherical pellets and not have a problem with the bismuth pellet manufacturing patent 5540749. The use of bismuth shot in shotgun shells is also covered by a patent 4949644. If you do your own reloading are you violating this patent?

Craig, I think someone is going to produce acceptable bismuth shot to serve a niche market---if it's there. Making good bismuth shot is not beyond the capability of members here. The Aussies blazed the trail going on 15 years ago. Not likely the break-through commercially will come from one of the big companies; more likely one of those practical geniuses who see a need and want to make a modest living from it. Breaking the legal impediments is probably the main hitch. Once that's done it should be clear sailing. If there's a dollar to be made in heaven or bismuth, someone will find a way to build Ezekiel's Ladder to get there. Regards, King

The Bismuth that I bought was certified at 99.9% pure bismuth. For extra they had it all the way up to 99.9999%. I guess for chemical reactions you need the much higher grade. But it was not worth the extra price to me. Tin is easy to buy in a similar pure form so unless you can not do the math I think that 97% bismuth and a 3% tin mix should be easy to make.

As I understand it you can make shot, but not sell shot and be safe under the patent. Personal use verse commercial use is a major difference. Next time I am going to try using liquid soap instead of the antifreeze type solution that the patent calls for. I have read that others use liquid soap with good results and it will be easier to clean off the product when finished. Since I will not be using a key component of the patent I suspect that I will be safe.

The patent is written so broadly that it may be very hard for them to enforce it a court. Plus the fact that they are "out of business" should mean that they have no real interest in enforcing the patent unless someone is interested in making the shot under the patent for commercial use. Which I would gladly like them to do so I do not have to.

I am surprised that a major ammo company like Remington has not made a serious attempt to take over Bismuth Shot Company. With non-tox regulations on the horizon in more areas a non steel substitute for lead should be a major addition to their line. How about a line of non steel non-tox shells in all the Walmarts for less than a buck a shell for a change.

The Federal Game wardens don't need to cut a shell open....they have a little gizmo that all they have to do is is stick one of your shells in and they can tell if it's a legal shell.

The problem was the finding of non-steel shot wads. The only way to show them I was using bismuth and the regular wad was to show them by cutting one shell open. These fellows were not the sharpest tools in the shed type fellows. I have seen the gizmo you talk about but they either did not have one or did not know which end of the shell to stick in first.

I found this and thought it interesting and germaine to the discussion:

Nontoxic Shot Approval

The nontoxic shot approval process contains a tiered review system
and outlines three conditions for approval of shot types. The first
condition for nontoxic shot approval is toxicity testing. Based on the
results of the toxicological report and the toxicity tests discussed
above, we conclude that tin shot does not pose a significant danger to
migratory birds or other wildlife.
The second condition for approval is testing for residual lead
levels. Any shot with lead levels equal to or exceeding 1 percent will
be considered toxic and, therefore, illegal. We have determined that
the maximum environmentally acceptable level of lead in any nontoxic
shot is trace amounts of 1 percent, and incorporated this requirement
in the new approval process. ITRI has documented that tin shot meets
this requirement.
The third condition for approval involves law enforcement. In the
August 18, 1995, Federal Register (60 FR 43314), we indicated our
position that a noninvasive field detection device to distinguish lead
from other shot types was an important component of the nontoxic shot
approval process. At that time, we stated that final approval of
bismuth-tin shot would be contingent upon the development and
availability of a noninvasive field detection device (60 FR 43315). We
incorporated a requirement for a noninvasive field detection device in
the revised nontoxic shot approval process published on December 1,
1997 (62 FR 63608); 50 CFR 20.134(b)(6). A field detection method to
distinguish tin shot from lead currently is being developed by ITRI.
Granting temporary approval for tin shot during the 2000-2001 hunting
season will facilitate completion of development of such a device.
However, we will not consider either additional temporary approvals, or
final approval, of tin shot beyond the 2000-2001 season until a
reliable and acceptable field detection method is developed and is
readily available to law enforcement personnel.

Friends:

Sorry I havent been around much, but busy hardly comes close.

There are currently three problems with bismuth shot making commercially.

1) Bismuth metal prices have skyrocketed over the last 4 years or so. I was getting quotes of 3.5 dollars US for a pound, in 1 mtric ton lots. Now the same is 6 dollars and more. The Chinese are using a lot of theior own domestic production for lead-free uses ( obviously not children's toys). Worldwide demand has outstripped supply.

2) Petersens patent is about due to expire . April 2009 is the date, I believe. Until that time,though, even finding someone to negotiate a license is unlikely, and the risks of infringement are great.

3) ASARCO holds the other big patent, on the "drip process" that has been much discussed and used by our Australian friends. That patent is possibly susceptible to breaking, but do you have $100k to drop into the legal lottery that a patent lawsuit entails?

4) ASARCO is the single biggest marketer of metals in North America. They want to sell bismuth, not make shot. If someone had a viable industrial operation making shot, I suspect ASARCO would be happy to license their patent. HB intends to find out.

ASARCO will provide quantity breaks for purchases of more than 10 tons. At least that is what they have discussed with me.

5) The "garage-do-it-yourself" drip process works. It produces beautiful, round shot at about 30 pounds an hour from 2 nozzles. A Littleton shotmaker has 7 nozzles in the ladle, so obviously shot can be made at a higher rate, even in a garage.

Hunters Bismuth had been preparing a plan for real production, and will commence negotiation with ASARCO for license to produce drip-shot shortly.

I have also been working on a patent that is a "work-around" ASARCO's drip method patent. Unfortunately, although it works, it is an industrial process, and not a back-yard do it your self method.

More later.

Regards

GKT

They must've been smarter than you gave them credit for if they could spot a non-steel wad.

HomelessjOe

It was red. Did not ask them if they knew the name of the color. Trust me when I say they were not real bright, I am not kidding. I have seen state and federal game wardens who were smart as heck. These were several steps below average. If they had been at TSA they would have run you through the x-ray machine and have your bags rolled across the metal detector.