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Blackadder #87582 03/12/08 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Blackadder
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
I'd love to know...show Mssrs. Webleys patend...I doubt it predates the 1914 catalog by 20-25 years.


Actually it predates catalog by 31 years: 1883 (at least in America; I think UK patent is 1882)


The UK patent is the Webley & Brain Patent, No, 3053, of June 28, 1882. This is Webley's screw-grip in it's original doll's head form.


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Originally Posted By: 400 Nitro Express
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
I agree the gun on page 20 appears to be the Evans gun....

It reads "Patent Top Screw Treble Grip, Side Lock".

If want to call it a screw grip help yourself.



...and what do you think "Patent Top Screw Treble Grip" means?


Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe


It means it has a third bite....


That's obviously an intentionally obdurate post. Well, maybe not, but we won't go there.

Yes, when referring to a double gun with Purdey bolting, the words "Treble Grip" mean that it has a third bite, but you ignored the three preceding words - the ones that describe precisely what kind of third bite it is.

"Top Screw" before the words "Treble Grip" means that the third bite is a screw grip, as opposed to any other kind of third bite. Yes, there are other kinds of screw grip, but this is Webley's catalogue, and use of the word "Patent" in a description of a Webley gun therein means it's Webley's patent. So, what kind of third bite is it? A type of screw grip patented by Webley, and they patented only one. "Patent Top Screw Treble Grip Sidelock" could not have been more precise.

Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe


Do you think Mssrs. Webley would be ashamed to call it a screw grip Proprietary gun?


Absolutely! If you had read the catalogue, you'd know that the "A & W" boxlock, and the "W & R" sidelock were Webley's flagship screw grip models. The "'Proprietary' Hammerless" model (that's the name of the specific model and has no other meaning, in case you didn't get that) was their economy screw grip. Short cuts are necessary to build "price" guns of good quality, and the "Proprietary" screw grip used a straight extension rather than a doll's head because it was cheaper to make. No, referring to a "W & R" as the down market "Proprietary" model wouldn't have made old T. W. happy at all.



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Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
What is the lever marked with a "W" in the first and second drawings ?

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That's easy. "W" is part of the cocking system in the two-part patent 3053 of 1882 -- see line 20 in patent for explanation. A fuller explanation starts at line 90. If you like a shorter explanation specifically about this function see David Baker and Ian Crudgington's The British Shotgun Vol II (p. 112-113). For Baker & Crudgington's descripton and explanation (with photo and illustration) of the Screw-grip component of patent 3053, see pp. 56-57. Note those authors separate discussions of the two parts of the patent, as the first is not dependent on the second to function.

I do not think many Screw grips -- or many Webley guns, for that matter -- were made with the Webley & Brain cocking system. I've never seen an example, but that is not to say they do not exist. If one does, I'd love to see a pic (I can ask Mr Baker about this if you'd like to know more but may take some time to get an answer.) Regardless, I would state with some confidence they are certainly nowhere as common as the Webley & Rogers screw grip sidelock and Anson & Webley screw grip boxlocks — the screw grip bit, BTW, describes only the treble grip system employed on both. Mssrs Rogers and Anson, respectively, supply the cocking mechanism (via the barrels dropping) on these commercially successful Screw grip variants. Ditto the Anson-type cocking on Proprietary Gun.




Last edited by Blackadder; 03/12/08 09:44 PM.
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