doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Loading data for the .450/.400 2 3/8"

Anyone have load data? Does "Shooting the British Double Rifle" cover this cartridge? What about one of the single shot books?

Rocketman,
The appendix in Shooting British Double Rifles shows 3 loads.

32grs cordite 270gr copper tube bullet... 1650fps.
80grs black powder, 230gr bullet... 1750fps
80grs black powder, 255gr bullet... 1750fps

I have a double rifle in this caliber. Very enjoyable round to shoot.

Thanks very much for the info. Care to tell me about your rifle? When was it made? What load does it like?

It's a backaction hammerless Holland & Holland, c.1888

It has conventional rifling, though it seems to like paper patched bullets the best. I normally shoot the 210gr. .400" Oregon Trail hard cast bullet, patched, over 75grs. Swiss 1 1/2g and a Win mag primer. Also use a 1/8" thick grease cookie with a 410" overshot card under the bullet. On my best day, I have shot 3 rights and 3 lefts into 1 1/2" at 50 yards with this load.

My NFB load is 32grs. H4198, Win standard primer, 8grs. of pillow stuffing, 410" veg fiber wad and that same bullet, or for deer hunting, a paper patched Hornady XTP 200gr, .400" jacketed HP.

Lee also makes a 210gr mould for a 41 Mag that shoots well at full diameter. I pan lube this bullet with Alox.

Hope this helps.

That helps a lot!! Thanks. Do you full length size or neck size only? Brand of dies? Brass? I'm thinking I'll use cut down Hornady 450-400 3".

I'll be feeding a Jones underlever hammer Woodward of about 1879. It has good conventional rifling.

Normally, with my double rifles, I neck size only to be able to have enough space to get all the powder stuffed in there. But... with this gun I need to full length size so my powder charge comes up to the base of the neck, so my lube, wads, etc... fall out where I need them. It all depends on what your gun likes. Mine shoots better with fully resized brass & mag primers...?

I use Bertram brass and Buffalo Arms has this size in stock.
The dies that I have came with the rifle, and were made in England. Buffalo Arms will have CH4D dies available for this caliber.

Rocketman:

In Winfer's book on Holland single shot rifles, he provides the same information that CFWs quoted from SBDR along with reproductions of the original Holland prints. The BP load used a paper patched bullet.

Winfer also offers a modern smokeless powder load for the .450/400-2-3/8:

230 grain bullet
30 grains 3031
Large Rifle primer

Velocity = 1700 fps.


I have no experience with this chambering so you are on your own. This load does seem in keeping with other Nitro for Black loads I have seen and the velocity is in line with the original loads. FWIW, even back in the early days of cordite the smokeless loads produced lower pressures for a given bullet velocity than did Black Powder. At least as long as you didn't take the ammo to India or Africa...

Glenn

Thank you, CFWs!! Thank you, GF!! --- OK, I take back the wize crack about the wart hog.

pssssst! There is a small life lesson going on above. When being a wisecrack-or, leave yourself some wiggle room. You just never know when the wisecrack-ee may be in a position to make you disappear in a puff of smoke.

The other good news about the 450/400 2-3/8" is that other modern brass is still available, it just goes by the name 10,3x60R. Huntington's shows RWS brand at $35 for 20.

That sure beats the heck out of $75/20...

I have a Westley Richards double in this caliber as well as an Alex Henry SS. The Westley is too "new" for me to have shot it much, but I have had the Henry for many years. Back when it was difficult to get brass, I made suitable cartriges using .348 Win. brass. You have to thin the rims a bit, and the resulting cases are a bit short in the neck, but work just fine. My bores measure .410, and .41 cal pistol bullets work well. I am away from my loading notes, so cannot give you my nitro for black charge.

What is the serial # of your Woodward?

All the best, Mal

MMG - the Woodward is #3717; it must be a early use of this cartridge. Looking forward to any loading data you can share. I was going to use .348's, but now think the new Hornady 450-400 3" should be a good bet. I'll do chamber casts soon.

Does anyone know if the new Hornady brass (450-400 3") has the thick rim or the thin (0.040")?

Does paper patch work with a slightly rough bore? Does unpatched bare lead work better?

Rocketman, the 450/400 3" is the Jeffery case which has the thick rim. The 3 1/4 has the .040 rim. What rifling type does your rifle have? If it is Henry type, you will probably do best with jacketed bullets if the bores are rough. If you try lead only, be sure they have plenty of lube, and are fairly hard. I have not had good luck with PP and rough bores with Henry rifling.
All the best, Mal