doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com daughters first double - .410, i need advice

My 1/2 cent-

I agree w/ the suggestion of a 20 ga, but make it a break open gun (O/U or SxS), as they're:
1. better for teaching gun safety
2. safer guns for beginners (you can tell from across a field if the gun is open)
3. much less likely to pinch her little fingers

Then, start her w/ these shells:
Fiocchi Premium Target Loads: Low Recoil Trainers 20 LITE
http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_target.html

I don't have children but I think I probably was one back in the day and I shoot a lot of skeet squads w/ kids getting a taste of the target sports and maybe some hunting prep. The Daly bantamwgt/lgth. 20 sounds like the ticket if you can find a load that will cycle it and not kick the snot out of the kid. If they single load, even that doesn't matter. I don't know where the bolt release is on the Daly; the ones with the pushbutton (not 1100) don't appear to present that much of a mousetrap hazard.

The safety protocol generally and for the specific gun has to be drilled in. I get painted all the time by 50 and 60yr. olds taking their O/Us out of the rack and opening them. If you never want to sing the "I didn't know . . ." tune, the gun should come out of the rack with the muzzles in the air when it's opened. So safety-wise there is no special gun which will make young or old heads work optimally.

9 yrs. old is pretty young imo but I have seen a runty 10 yr old with desire and Dad's trap vest down to his knees do pretty well with a heavy Citori. Conversely some of these gangly computer cowboys who can't take out the trash without a dolly need something that a short light gun won't give them.

I use a 20 gauge 1100 when I take my daughter in laws out for a round of skeet. They love it but it is usually a learning experience since we don't go very often. They say their arms feel like rubber after a round. These are not lightweight guns. I cannot imagine a 9 year old, unless she works on a farm, being able to comfortably use an 1100 to learn on.

When I shoot the gun is up for only a few seconds but when someone is just learning it seems to me they have to hold the gun up a lot more from inexperience and all the teaching of how to place and hold the gun in the beginning.

A $300 aluminum? receiver gun is not probably gonna hold up for a million rounds but after its duty as a teaching youth size gun is up it can be sold for $200 or traded in for a break open gun which will kick a lot harder but the girls will be older and stronger.

I agree with Milt, the 1100 in 20 ga. is pushing over 7 ibs. No fun for a youngster to have to carry and shoulder that. Stick with something light and in the cheaper range and later if they stay with it, then go to a better gun, maybe yours.

I recall one of the longtime old local shooters at the range getting a grandaughter shooting. The girl was extremely small in stature. I'm talking something a little over 3 ft tall. She/they wanted to set her up to shoot skeet. That required 2 shots. He consulted with Joe Shiosaki and they finally settled on starting with a .410 Huglu o/u single trigger. The cost was small and the gun lent itself to shortening. Joe cut the barrels down to some rediculously short length, made a new buttstock with a shorter reach and length, recontoured the forend. The gun was left as cyl/cyl. The girl recieved professional coaching and within a year was shooting in the 2-'s regularly. When she reached the age of 10 she was still smaller than the average 10 yr old, but was shooting with pretty much any of her grandfather's regular skeet shooting gang. I watched her outshoot some of them on occasion.

There are 9 yr olds and there are 9 yr olds. Physical stature can vary drastically in kids. Some are probably tough and large enough to heft a 7 lb 20g 1100 and can shoot a gun that has a LOP long enough to accomodate the recoil spring in there and take the recoil.

I've watched several people start with a 410, a couple of them were adults. All went on to shoot avidly and shoot well. I'm convinced low recoil and muzzle blast are key to an enjoyable experience. "low" is a relative term when you are starting out, even as an adult, IMO. One guy started his 5' 8", 120 lb wife on a 1100 410 that I helped set up for her. I was more a proponent of starting her on a 20g but her husband is headstrong and knew her sensitivity to recoil. She went on to shoot competitively in skeet. She still shoots that 410 1100 gun on occasion and shoots it well.

I think the focus on increased probability of hitting a target with a 20g over a 410 should take a back seat to the recoil issue, as necessary.

I would go with a 20 ga.

This is the sort of thread that elicits many good answers, as do "optimum shot size for phez" or "what's the best gauge" threads. Some 9 year olds are capable of handling an 1100. Some are not. There is alot more to fitting any 9 year old than filing the comb and cutting the buttstock. Most guns - like the 20 ga 1100 - are in no way scaled for small hands. Same goes for most inexpensive SXSs. Sawed off muzzles and butts do not a youth gun make. Fat forends and forward weight balance might work for us, but they are usually not good for small children. And what happens when you cut a buttstock? Balance shifts forward. A small child's spine - never mind the arms - cannot support weight held out front.

Here's what I picked up as a "starter" gun for my kids (no, this one's not mine - and mine is not for sale): http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=101321409

We started with stationary targets on the center stake. My daughter, now 14, still likes to shoot it because she is so petite and the gun does not hurt. My son inkballed his first H7 with it two weeks before he turned seven. After he started smacking L3 and H5 well before the center stake I decided to get him a 20 ga 391 Y model. We load 5/8 oz and 3/4 oz payloads and use factory gun clubs for the first shot on doubles. He is progressing very well - has won a coupla turkeys. But he is cut from a different mold. At 11 he is 5'5", 135#, and has now outgrown that Y model's buttstock.

I agree with those who observe that developing skill with a scattergun really begins somewhere between 12 and 16, depending on the kid. Even so, there is such a thing as a "starter" gun, and a little .410 (like the M-20) that has scaled dimensions has minimal recoil. No, it's not for teals and 16 yd trap. But for informal soft hand trap targets and long skeet incomers it's just fine.

Sam

With the 1100 the old special field is the best deal with stright stock so the hand isn't forced to an adult pistol grip. Myself and my son started with a 311 with plastic stock and cut down wood stock. Son still shoots it and my ten grandkids are learning with it.Milk jugs on the ground then pulled with a string and then swinging in a tree,what could be better.

Please check you pm's.
Thanks, Tyler

Hi Guys. thanks for the replies. Good advice, all. You are right in that originally wanting a break action was likely more for dad than daughter. After making a short trip to actually look at and handle the Stoeger - I couldn't do it. Practical or not - I wouldn't feel right having her tote that boat anchor.

I have started investigating semi-autos. Remington is an obvious choice as many of you have pointed out. I am on a quest to find the lightest I can find. Franchi has made for years an AL-48. I only own 2 S/A shotguns, a Super Black Eagle II for waterfowl and a Benelli Legacy for hard to hunt Wisconsin grouse. My Legacy is pretty much a dolled up Franchi AL-48.

Is there a "lightest" 20 g. S/A that comes to mind?