doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Classic non double US guns.

Another post in a thread here made me consider the pump gun in relationship to being a classic gun. The British did not invent the double gun from what I can find. I accept the British, to a large extent perfected the double gun, including side plate, box lock and hammer gun. They took each to just about the end of the line development wise. Inventors in the US did the same for the pump gun. I can not think of a single major non US made pump gun unless it is a modern, black/camo type gun or copies of older guns with the exceptions of a few Turkish made guns.

I have the normal examples, often seen like, Mossberg's, Winchester 97's, 12 & 42's, Remington's and Ithaca's. I also like the examples not often seen like the Steven/Savage Browning designs, Smith % Wesson 3000, Mossberg 200K, Marlin's 1898, 19, 31-20, 44-20, 43-12, High Standard's, Noble's, Spencer's and Toledo Arms. I still am looking for a decent, safe to shoot, examples of several other early guns. Rare and old can get expensive or just very hard to find.

Some of the early examples were dead ends and when you use one you can see why. The Toledo Arms 20 gauge I shoot is a well made gun, with Krupp steel barrel, but operating it is very hard to do. With no hammer it is a striker firing system. All the cocking effort is in the last 1/2" of the slide operation and it is almost impossible to do with the gun mounted to your shoulder. Being a striker gun, with no hammer, you get no mechanical advantage in cocking it. Compressing the spring takes a lot of effort. Plus the action design itself is a bit of a flop down here, then flop back there type operation. Dirt was a real problem in rough use I am sure.

Another interesting design was the Marlin hammer-less guns. The Hammer-less design went through several revisions. I like the lines of the gun. The Chinese puzzle bolt design is a nightmare, if you need to remove it and do not understand how it goes back together. There are no pins holding about half a dozen part in place. They just fit and rotate in the right position to all the other parts.

The Marlin hammer guns was not a real strong design but lasted a decent time. Several years ago Marlin sent out a advisory that they should not be used with modern ammo. Not clear if this was just lawyers talking, concerns about 100 year old designs and metal or a real concern about locking system not being very robust. I figure it was a combination of them all and the concern that today's idiots are more dangerous than those from the past, at self inflected harm doing stupid things. "Hold my beer" seem to be a too often heard last words spoken.

So do others have favorite pump guns that I have missed? Many of us started out with these designs, or graduated to them after single shot guns.

While I don't have one, and have only handled a couple, the short lived J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co.'s No. 200 is pretty unique --

Since it is a seemingly fun off topic thread anyway, I would stretch it some and think there are uniquely American quality and desireable pump action rifles. Maybe, from the 1880's through the first quarter of the 1900's, Colt, Winchester boys rifles, a Remington or two?

You mentioned one of my favorite guns, the Winchester 1897. I bought my first one for cowboy shooting, made the mistake of chopping the barrel down and eventually sold it, while keeping a 30" barreled 97. Like so many of John Browning's designs, the 97 just feels "right" and later pump guns like the Mossberg 500 or the Remington 870 feel clunky compared to a 97.

I have this one: a Montgomery Ward badged Stevens 520 flat top tang safety 16ga. It came with a 28" modified barrel as pictured and I found a matching 26" IC barrel assembly...Geo



Folks on a dove shoot see that hump back action and I just tell them it is a rare Browning Sweet Sixteen Pump.

George, that looks familiar. I have a "Model 30" 12/30" solid rib which is a semi hump version and "Western Field" 16/28" solid rib which is just like yours except with fancier wood. John Browning was one talented inventor. His guns might look odd but they all work well, even a hundred years later.

Yes, the 520 guns sold under other brands were (I think) all marked Model 30. Could there be any stronger method of fitting the front and back ends of these guns together?...Geo

I was fortunate recently to buy a 1914 Stevens 520 just to restore. I have restored two 1908 Remington Repeating shotguns (pre model 10). Those gun along with my Remington models 17 and 31 are all well built and fairly easy to work on.

The 200 was not a Browning design. It does look alike in profile. Different locking system. It was a very, overly so, complex design.

Model 200

Model 530



George S. Lewis and Charles (Sparrow) Young were the designers. Young held the first patent I think and Lewis improved it. There were a lot of patents for guns back then and most never went into production. Young was the first to run 100 from the back yard line in trap.

I think it was in the 1972 or 1973 Gun Digest article I read, back in 1972 or 1973. Might have been 1973. Time frame is based on where I was living, when I was reading the Gun Digest. I loved the articles in those old Gun Digest. Got one every year for Christmas.

Most were covered in drool, looking at all those guns I needed and never could afford. Pythons for under $500.00. Superposed for less than that. And me earning less than that. Problem with the good old days is most of them came when I had no money.

Something that seemed to come with the pump/auto guns is the milled rib. My Remington 10-D has one and it looks pretty good. The tooling must have been around a long time as I bought an 870 barrel with the same milled pattern. It is 28" full choked and is the start of my grandsons straight stocked 16 yard trap gun.
I am not too sure of other gun makers that used the same milled ribs.