doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - Out Of Proof English Guns

with regard to english made guns, what constitutes out of proof, beyond obvious barrel alterations?

like, do pits or dents cause a gun to be deemed out of proof?

and what about twist steel barreled guns?

and if a gun is deemed out of proof, who does the deeming?

If a gun is still in proof, there is no real reason to have it reproofed. Proof is proof. I suspect anybody who would do such a thing, have now had their fourth booster shot and wear a mask when driving alone in their car. A dealer or auction house has absolutely no incentive to dump out of proof guns because the cost of doing so and getting caught is far beyond what little they can gain for doing it. Now if the gun has some historic value and deemed not likely to pass reproof and will not be shot, there use to be a proof exempt certificate. Do not know if they still have them as a option.

Think of what selling an out of proof gun would mean to a dealer who sell several thousands guns a year. A few pounds gain against a real inquiry, a fine and thousand of people finding out their reputation for selling good firearms is false.

Most people who will buy an older, imported English gun grasp the fact that the guns have specific ammunition requirements. This is detailed in the markings on the flats. Even if proof specs change, that does not negate that the gun was proofed to a certain level, and ammunition that meets the requirements of that level of proof, should be used in that gun. Hint: Most American loaded ammunition is NOT intended to meet English shotgun requirements. Measuring the bores, chokes and chambers will show if someone, say, an unscrupulous US dealer, has had them tampered with, by excessive honing or boring, or otherwise changing the dimensions since the gun was proofed. Reproof, does not mean it is ready to run here in the states on promo loads from Wal-Mart.

Why do you have such a tough time grasping this, ed?

This isn’t that tough.
Best,
Ted

Ted, this is correct but some (not all) US ammunition has been submitted to CIP for testing and meets CIP standards. Among the ammunition in my storage area are the following that have CIP approval marks on the boxes:

Remington 16 gauge 1 ounce 1200 fps - Munich CIP mark
Winchester Super Target 20 gauge 7/8 ounce 1200 fps - Liege CIP mark
Winchester Super Target 12 gauge 1 ounce 1180 fps - Birmingham and London CIP marks
Winchester Super Target 12 gauge 1 1/8 ounce 1200 fps - Liege CIP mark

Fiocchi 16 gauge and 28 gauge do not have CIP marks on the boxes. These are assembled in the USA of foreign components.

The USA made Herters 12 gauge 1 ounce 1180 fps do not have CIP marks on the boxes but are believed to be the same as the Super Target 1 ounce 1180 fps cartridges

Obviously all of the European cartridges we have (Monarch, Challenger, RC, Italian made Herter's, etc.) are CIP approved.

For the "modern" guns my wife and I shoot (my 3 Beretta O/U's, my 2 AyA No 2's, our 2 Ugartechea SxS's and her Grulla SLE) we use any standard for gauge US or foreign cartridge - 12 gauge = 1 1/8 at 1200 fps, 16 gauge = 1 ounce at 1200 fps, 20 gauge = 7/8 ounce at 1200/1210 fps and 28 gauge = 3/4 ounce at 1200 fps. I'm comfortable that these are safe and will not damage the guns even with a significant amount of shooting. I stay away from heavy US loadings as much for my shoulder as my gun; my wife and I do not like heavy recoil.

I have 2 damascus barreled guns, a Joseph Lang completed in 1866 and rebarreled by James Woodward about 1872 and a Parker built in 1891. In these two guns I only shoot CIP 2 1/2 inch cartridges, RST 2 1/2 inch or 2 1/2 inch reloads (tested by Tom Armbrust) loaded to equivalent pressures.

while we here in the states do not have to follow the proof laws relative to selling old sxs guns, I suspect many would feel the value is effected by whether a gun is in proof or not. I own two classics, bought knowing they were out of proof but had the barrel walls checked and felt comfortable knowing I was only going to shoot light 7/8 oz loads in 12 ga guns proofed for 1 1/8 loads. In both cases I suspect my purchase price would have been substantially higher had they been in proof. I might add I consulted a few of my most knowledgeable friends regarding sending them back to England and have them reproofed and the answer was the same. "Why subject them to the stress ? Use them as intended and enjoy them. "

Thinking it was aimed at a single dealer, known mostly for his no return policy.

Best,
Ted

Ed is jealous of English made guns.

I’ll give it a shot, ed, but, you are beginning to annoy me.

-Reproofing to current U.K. specs would NOT expand ammunition options, here. ALL US commercial ammunition should be assumed to be loaded to SAAMI maximum, about 11500psi, unless it is from a boutique maker who subjects his product to testing for pressure, and puts it in writing as to what pressure that particular lot makes. Ammunition options would expand if US commercial ammunition makers produced ammunition to a certain level of proof. They don’t.Those 80 year old guns are not suited to higher pressure US loads, even if they pass proof-they were designed with lower pressure ammunition in mind. Someone gave thought to how big the bolting surfaces and hinge should be. You can run lighter loads then what the gun was proofed for, but, heavier is asking for trouble. Additionally. The wood is old. The solder holding everything together is old.

-Knowledgable potential owners in a competitive gun market frown on English guns that have been altered. They are NOT more desirable with modification. From what I have seen, Englishmen prefer the 2 1/2” version of the game gun, believing they typically are balanced better, and built lighter.

-I’ve had a single gun submitted for reproof in Birmingham. They were prompt, and I can’t remember what it cost, so, I’m guessing it wasn’t eye opening, either way. Gun arrived, on schedule with new proof marks. Still used low pressure ammunition it was designed for to begin with.

-The number of guys who buy doubles, any type, is small. The guys who buy old English doubles is a subset of that. The guys in that subset, who can positively ID new London vs Birmingham proofs won’t likely pay more for one versus the other, because, they like them unmolested, remember?

Best,
Ted