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craigd, eeb, greener4me, Imperdix, John Roberts, keith, liverwort, mc, Owenjj3, Parabola, Stanton Hillis, Ted Schefelbein, Tim Cartmell
Total Likes: 32
Original Post (Thread Starter)
#614557 05/06/2022 6:29 PM
This article just popped up on Diggory Hadoke's vintage journal website Lead Ban. Not a stellar future for shooting vintage guns.

Liked Replies
by canvasback
Originally Posted by keith
It may be too late for the UK and European Union hunters to reverse the tide. Nothing they have given up has been enough. And the only real hope for hunters here is to take a hard stand against it before it reaches the point of no return. Giving in to the wacko Liberal Left is just plain dumb. They will never be satisfied until guns and hunting are totally eliminated.

Just look to our north. Trudeau and the Liberals in Canadian Parliament are on the verge of freezing all sales of new and existing handguns, and implementing a mandatory buy-back of the semi-automatic rifles they hate. So much for the misguided notion that we can persuade the opposition to see things our way. The concept of learning from history is totally lost on some.

I have lots of disagreements with Keith but foundationally, the disagreements are with our methods, not our understanding of the problem. Keith is absolutely correct in the quote above. There is NO compromise that will ever be enough, on guns and on hunting. Those we stand against will only be satisfied when there are no guns in private hands and no hunting of game allowed.

Give no inch, ever, on any kind of gun. Or any type of hunting that respects the game, private property and public access to public land.
5 members like this
#614719 May 11th a 11:25 PM
by Ted Schefelbein
Ted Schefelbein
You guys need to think in Jurassic terms. That period lasted about 145 million years, and, even if there were plastics in use at that time, they wouldn’t be here, now.

The wads, the shot, the empty hulls, whatever, are all just other ideas to legislate us out of existence. At the end of the day, it matters not how long the wad lays on the ground, or if an alternative exists. That isn’t the point.

4 members like this
#614650 May 10th a 09:15 AM
by Salopian
I am sorry to say that this whole Lead issue really angers me.
Our largest shooting association BASC made a statement years ago that it would support the alternatives to Lead shot if it became readily available and was economic to buy . That at the minute is not available BUT BASC seems to be the prime mover in promoting a total Lead ban . It is my understanding that they have forwarded £250,000 to an organisation that promotes the sale of Game meat that has not been shot with Lead ! Forwarded this money without consulting its membership!
Last Friday May 6th we were subjected to a review intending to ban the total use of Lead ammunition within the next five years and earlier if possible.
This review is being administered by HSE Health and Safety Executive which is basically a Government run safety organisation for the employment of people . WHY is it not entrusted to a Shooting Sport organisation? Also it is a lead ban instigated by the EU of which we voted not to be members of so why do we have to follow their example?
I am sorry to say that due to very poor representation by our Shooting Sports Organisations we have been sold out .
Initially it was stated that clay shooting would not be subject to a lead ban and now they have included ALL shooting in a total Lead ban .
What have our National representative clay shooting organisations done ? NOTHING.
3 members like this
by lagopus
The Game Dealer's Association have said that they will not purchase game from shoots that have been shot with lead from mid 2022; so by next game season. The reason being is that export to Europe is very difficult and most of the U.K, Supermarkets won't stock it either unless shot with non-lead ammo. There is a voluntary phase out by 2025 to allow ammunition companies to come up with alternatives. Bismuth is the safe alternative in older guns but expensive; Tungsten Matrix is good but extortionately expensive. Lead will still be permitted at clay shoots, especially those with contained areas for shot fallout. That is until some new Government thinks they can get a few extra votes from the 'Greens' by banning it completely.

I live in the county of Derbyshire in England where lead is prevalent in the ground through about 25% of the county. It has been mined for thousands of years and in fact the Romans made a big thing about lead mining there. It naturally occurs in the ground in huge quantities still. A shooting ground I go to in a rural setting has been going for over 50 years and I go once a month with a small group to shoot vintage guns and muzzle loaders etc. when the main body of recreational shooters haver gone home. It is normal to see pheasants and rabbits feeding about on the ground sometimes with clays falling around them and shot going over as they are more or less used to it. The owner of the ground is yet to see any dead or dying birds from lead poisoning. Lagopus.....
2 members like this
by Borderbill
If we're talking big money and old guns, it might be more reasonable to spend the money on bismuth rather than a new set of barrels. Some time ago the question was asked to a very active and well traveled trap shooter here in the States why he didn't buy a motorhome or trailer and stay at the clubs for the shoots. His answer was "I can stay at an awful lot of hotel rooms for the price of one those things".
2 members like this
#614720 May 12th a 12:25 AM
by Stanton Hillis
Stanton Hillis
Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
At the end of the day, it matters not how long the wad lays on the ground, or if an alternative exists. That isn’t the point.

Amen. I farm for a living and the land, and it's health, is super important to me. I go to great lengths to protect it and nurture it. Because, it sustains me and supports me, and I want to be good steward. But, plastic wads and shotgun hulls are the least of my worries. There must be thousands in my fields, mostly below the surface now, from dove shoots, that are in varying states of deterioration. It doesn't bother me in the least.

Plastic hulls deteriorate, when exposed to UV rays, much faster than most think.
2 members like this
#614811 May 13th a 07:51 PM
by keith
Plastic is a very generic term for a number of organic and petroleum based polymer compounds. Being organic in nature, they absolutely decompose over time, despite what some sources claim. That time may be anywhere from a couple years to 500 years, depending on the chemical composition thickness, exposure to UV light, etc. Unlike things that decompose more readily, such as corn starch based materials or cellophane made from cellulose, it can be a nuisance and an eyesore when it accumulates faster than it breaks down. But the idea that cows, sheep, fallow deer, or ducks are dying in any significant numbers from eating plastic is little more than hysteria or agenda driven bullshit. Animals generally do not evolve and prosper by intentionally eating non-food items like rocks and plastic shotshell wads.

And we all should know by now that the liberals who hate our guns will say and do anything to make shooting more expensive. It's a shame that many shooters still buy into their crap about lead ammo being an existential threat. I worry much more about breaking a tooth on chilled lead shot than getting lead poisoning from a pellet I inadvertently may swallow, that will pass through my digestive system 99.9999% intact in 24 hours or less. There are very few cases of severe or fatal lead poisoning in this country. And the vast majority are due to disorders like pica, which compels some people to eat things like paint chips, or occupational exposure, such as dust from battery manufacturing, or drinking moonshine from stills soldered with lead solder. Wild game consumption is a very minute and negligible lead poisoning risk factor. But I'm sure some gullible fool will post the fake news that lead exposure is causing over 400,000 deaths per year in the U.S. alone. Some people will believe anything.

In the UK, one death of a 2 year old girl was coded to lead poisoning in England between 1981 to 1996. I'd bet it wasn't due to eating wild birds shot with lead ammo.

We all should be asking those Libtards who are so concerned about the existential threats posed by our ammunition why they aren't as concerned about real threats.... such as our open border policy that contributed to over 106,000 drug overdose deaths in the U.S. in 2021.
2 members like this
by ksauers1
Once they succeed in taking away all the guns they hate there will be the next group of guns they hate and then another and another. Basically they hate all guns.
2 members like this
by greener4me
Originally Posted by eeb
All that is a crying shame. Sounds like BASC has an agenda that does not include it’s members. Follow the money.

eeb, - you have highlighted an inescapable fact regarding BASC.

Quite a number of years ago this organisation announced its opposition to the shooting of large numbers of reared gamebirds , mainly pheasants, on commercial driven bird shoots. It adopted an "advisory" role (self assumed) and issued a set of its own recommendations on what should be acceptable practice for these shoots - bag numbers ie limits, stocking density, and rules on releasing amongst others. The seed of their agenda had seemingly fallen on stony ground: the reverse actually happened for a number of years, during widespread general economic growth the large commercial shoots prospered and got ..ahem... bigger. Despite this it seems that the BASC anti-driven shooting faction (do it our way or...) had not gone away but modified its stance to one more "advisory on best practice" instead of dictatorial. In the last two to three years Covid driven restrictions saw a number of shoots close and now in 2022 due to Avian Influenza amongst the EU gamebird breeder farmers there is a major shortage of replacement stock for importation either as eggs or day old chicks. The big commercial shoots in search of birds for their release programme have driven the price of available replacements to absurd levels - and yes price gouging is quite rampant here. End result will be that smaller commercial shoots which closed for a few seasons will be completely finished and those who cannot source new stock this year will also be done for. So that just leaves - The Big Commercial shoots. ..... Just Another Nail in the Lid.

The later drive to abolish lead shot in UK was driven and spearheaded by the BASC executive - the clique of a few individuals at upper management. In the early stages BASC repeatedly referred to its participation in EU managed "consultations" on future restrictions to use of lead shot and muttered blandishments. Yet again it gradually assumed the mantle of "leader" in this issue in UK - subsequently driving this progamme which will end in the debacle of a complete ban on lead shot, bullet heads and airgun pellets.

These are two big issues driven by an outfit which purports to safeguard shooting sports. There are other instances of their incompetence in dealing with issues such as the abolition of the old game licence issued by state post offices [ how else could one provide figures on the number of participants in game shooting with which to support shooting and refute anti-blood sport organisations] and its almost complete acquiescence in issues on firearm and shotgun licensing procedures.

So this leads the thinker to ponder on the usefulness of BASC -- are they just a bunch of inompetents as living proof of the unintended consequences to their actions, or perhaps fall guys duped in their consultative capacity by organisations inimical to fieldsports, or as agents of self harm to the shooting industry in pursuing their own agenda ? Whatever, the toxic legacy of BASC will bear comparison to other incompetents in the ruling classes and the Law Of Unintended Consequences eg the UK governments post-Thatcher. No doubt you may see similarities in US ....

(PS - in case you think I have an axe to grind on behalf of commercial shoots - I do not participate ).
2 members like this
by SKB
I picked up a half dozen flats of lead shot cartridges this week in the UK and the seller told me that lead shot will still be in use on the smaller local shoots but steel will be required on larger shoots that sell the birds into the food chain.
1 member likes this
by HistoricBore
Down here in olde Hampshire it seems to be much the same as in Derbyshire. I have four older side by sides with 2.5" chambers and so cannot fire the 2.75" / 70mm cartridges filled with steel shot. We are told 2.5" steel is being made, but none has arrived in the shops.
Also the left barrels of all of mine are Full choke or almost, so to have that one choke opened out costs £100 / $135 at Teagues.

Bismuth cartridges are staggeringly expensive (quadruple the price) and hard to find. A Scottish shoot day that is booked for November has become non-lead, so I shall have to take my modern gun, a 48 year old Nikko with the barrels the wrong way round.

On our local shoot we eat all that we shoot, so what we use to shoot them with is our problem, but this will change in a year or three.

The recent Gavin Gardiner auction [good guy!] had eleven consecutive lots of classic 12 bore British sidelocks offered for sale with reasonable estimates; only two sold!
I intend to sit tight for the moment and not spend ANY money until life becomes clearer. Europe is also looking at a lead ban so this may be the end of an era - we shall see...

Historic Bore
1 member likes this
#614651 May 10th a 10:44 AM
by HistoricBore
Eeb: Here in Britain most game shoots ask Guns to use fibre wads, and have done so for years. The four British cartridge makers are trying to introduce 'plastic' wads made out of non-plastics that will bio-degrade over time on the ground, especially when wet. It is too early to say if these will work well enough, or protect the barrels enough.

The review announced last week runs for six months, and then they will need further months to come to any conclusions, with an implementation period following that, so nothing much will change soon.

But it will surely change, not for the better.

1 member likes this
#614653 May 10th a 11:41 AM
by Salopian
Dream on! BASC have had biodegradable wads sitting in a garden at HQ for years exposed to the elements and they are still there today !

Eley do have a wad that is water soluble but it still lingers around as a slimey mess for days after becoming into contact with moisture .
Interestingly enough only yesterday I was made aware that some plastics of the polyurethane type may well contain Lead as a constituent?
Sorry to say that as an avid shooting person I now feel abandoned , up the creek without a paddle.
1 member likes this
#614723 May 12th a 04:54 AM
by Imperdix
Originally Posted by eeb
All that is a crying shame. Sounds like BASC has an agenda that does not include it’s members. Follow the money.

Turkeys voting for Christmas .......they have achieved nothing of any real good for shooting in decades .
When we`ve been legislated out of existense ,they will just move to another trough elsewhere.
1 member likes this
#615085 May 23rd a 11:27 AM
by eeb
The Left never lets the truth stand in the way of their narrative
1 member likes this
#614777 May 13th a 01:52 AM
by craigd
There was comment about the "worry" that sheep will eat plastic shotgun wads, and that cattle will also. Do we know this or is it lore? The gory pictures of grazing animals that have eaten plastic, are generally rooting around in garbage, aren't they.

How many thousands of spent wads would a cow have to selectively target for eating, to form a ten or twenty pound blob of plastic in one of their guts. How many beef cattle get to free range graze in upland bird hunting country, for the many years it would take to accumulate an adequately offensive blob of plastic in it. How many beef cattle are allowed to graze in garbage dumps. How many milking cows get to graze in upland bird habitat. Does it matter if penned sheep will eat a plastic bag. How many years is a lamb allowed to graze for plastic wads, before it is no longer a lamb, and of little value to the rancher.

I embrace whatever the UK feels like doing, as long as they do it over there. Something is not adding up, as to what the agendas are that some of our bird hunting friends are trying to message. I'm all for biodegradeable wads, and uncompromisingly pro lead shot, but not if those wads are intended to price shooters out of the market, and is a strategy to discourage the next generation of shooter, hunters.
1 member likes this
by keith
Originally Posted by craigd
I'll never pretend to understand UK choices that are rightfully their's, but it is very interesting that games shooting has been reduced to such a narrow mandate. Some of these staged shoots are so obscenely expensive, the tactic seems hypocritical. Human baby food, let alone dog biscuits from China don't always have the healthiest inclusions in it. Anyway, thanks Demonwolf for the insight.

Good points craigd. Here in the U.S., most of us eat what we shoot, or give it away to friends who appreciate wild game as a healthy alternative to the estrogen and antibiotic laced meat sold commercially.

In my state at least, it is actually illegal to sell our wild game harvest. So we are not as subject to the influence of those who continue to claim that game killed with lead ammunition is some existential threat to humanity.

Most of us are living proof that it isn't.

It may be too late for the UK and European Union hunters to reverse the tide. Nothing they have given up has been enough. And the only real hope for hunters here is to take a hard stand against it before it reaches the point of no return. Giving in to the wacko Liberal Left is just plain dumb. They will never be satisfied until guns and hunting are totally eliminated.

Just look to our north. Trudeau and the Liberals in Canadian Parliament are on the verge of freezing all sales of new and existing handguns, and implementing a mandatory buy-back of the semi-automatic rifles they hate. So much for the misguided notion that we can persuade the opposition to see things our way. The concept of learning from history is totally lost on some.
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