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Thread Like Summary
builder, eightbore, Geo. Newbern, John Roberts, keith, mc, SKB, spring, Stanton Hillis, Ted Schefelbein
Total Likes: 33
Original Post (Thread Starter)
#622176 11/17/2022 2:43 PM
by rocky mtn bill
rocky mtn bill
I'm not a conservative, but I've always admired Michael Gerson who just died at 58. A staunch Christian, he had much to say about the role of religion in politics. We have lost a great voice for morality and sanity. RIP Michael.
Liked Replies
#622314 Nov 19th a 05:26 PM
by eightbore
eightbore
Don't give me any of that "They're not after the hunters." crap. They are after the hunters, and all guns, now including police guns. Anyone who ranks gun control as anything other than our #1 problem with liberals, doesn't understand that "gun control" is likely to cost you your life or freedom. Maybe not next year, but some day. Gun control should be your #1 item when picking a political party. Everything else is way less important.
6 members like this
#622179 Nov 17th a 03:32 PM
by John Roberts
John Roberts
Noted. So am I a Christian. But can you explain why you are not a conservative? Most gun owners and Second Amendment supporters are. What is so attractive about liberal thought and causes that enamor you? There are many times more conservative voices out there for morality and sanity than liberal ones.
JR
3 members like this
#622229 Nov 18th a 01:32 PM
by craigd
craigd
Originally Posted by nca225
Originally Posted by John Roberts
Noted. So am I a Christian. But can you explain why you are not a conservative? Most gun owners and Second Amendment supporters are. What is so attractive about liberal thought and causes that enamor you? There are many times more conservative voices out there for morality and sanity than liberal ones.
JR

....I or the few others to politely offer an answer, do you think that could be done without devolving into a fight?
Please do, but do your part to minimize the devolving. Consider factual comments that are in context with those you vote for, their actual policies, and their real world results, and not faux decorum?
3 members like this
#622260 Nov 18th a 10:39 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Bill: with the approach of the season of "peace and good will" towards men (qualified by "upon whom God's favor rests") what was the point of starting just another thread guaranteed to do the opposite?

So before Dave locks this thread, to answer Teds question regarding "Christ’s teaching and how that compares favorably to leftist dogma."
Here lies the problem.
People who "identify" as Christian (and what matters is how does God identify them) can have diametrically opposed answers. Because their answers are based on something other than truth, which is Scripture. To quote Pastor Alvin G. Hause, Bales Baptist Church, Kansas City, Missouri who faithfully served the Lord until taken home at 107.
"No question is settled until it is settled right, and no question is settled right until it is settled by the word of God."
As a non-deep thinkin' Baptist, I believe Scripture pretty much says what is means, and means what it says. The problem comes in making it mean what I/we want it to mean. And the bigger problem is in obeying/submitting to what it says.

SO the answers to all the divisive issues of our time, which are nothing new in this fallen world, start with "What does God think about this?", "Does the answer glorify God and bring lost sinners to Jesus?", "Does the answer enable sin?", "Does the answer reflect both God's love for sinner and His righteous hatred of sin?" and "Am I willing to submit to God's expressed will and not my own?"

And in closing wink for Lonesome
William Gurnall The Christian in Complete Armour
"Some things we trust God with, some things God trusts us with. The great thing which we put into God’s hand to be kept for us is our soul. That which God trusts us chiefly with is His truth."
3 members like this
#622225 Nov 18th a 01:14 PM
by Ted Schefelbein
Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted by nca225
Originally Posted by John Roberts
Noted. So am I a Christian. But can you explain why you are not a conservative? Most gun owners and Second Amendment supporters are. What is so attractive about liberal thought and causes that enamor you? There are many times more conservative voices out there for morality and sanity than liberal ones.
JR

Thank you for asking John. I do not want to answer for Bill, and I think I would rather wait a minute before answering myself, ere I draw the wrath of the board, but were he or I or the few others to politely offer an answer, do you think that could be done without devolving into a fight?

I’ve been in a fight. Nothing that happens here, is a fight.

Give it your best shot, Chris. I am woefully unskilled at Christianity, but, would be interested, as a layman, in someone articulating Christ’s teaching and how that compares favorably to leftist dogma. I doubt the man for the task will be found here, but, take a shot at it.

Best,
Ted
2 members like this
#622252 Nov 18th a 07:15 PM
by craigd
craigd
Originally Posted by nca225
Originally Posted by craigd
….Please do, but do your part to minimize the devolving. Consider factual comments that are in context with those you vote for, their actual policies, and their real world results, and not faux decorum?

I'm afraid this, and other responses show a level of mistrust that skews towards intolerance. When you would like, I would be happy to freely explain and answer John's question, preconditioned that we all partake with open minds and refrain from debasing each other and attributing ill motives.

Please don’t be afraid, why not own it? All I’m asking is for you own it factually, and not emotionally. How about this, don’t allow motives to run amok, just reconcile the policies and result of left wing officials with your call for open minds.

What is the point of open minded discussion, when your left wing policy makers continually impose closed minded erosions of United States citizen rights?

As to mistrust, simply earn trust, why not? I, if not we as a group, can recall your belittling, not factual opposition on issues of Christianity based life styles, principals, and even its basis for law that governs us. Playing a victim of your definition of bullies, is not a way to appear above the fray, is it?
2 members like this
#622186 Nov 17th a 07:14 PM
by keith
keith
I sincerely hope Dave Weber does not delete this Off-Topic Political Thread, or ditch my post. There is a very important lesson for Gun Owners who frequent this, and other firearms websites.

When a devout Liberal Left activist like rocky mtn bill makes a post praising any so-called Republican or Conservative, then you'd better do some Fact-Checking, because you can bet your best double gun that it is dishonest and disingenuous at best.

Don't take my word for it, or his either. Do some searching yourself, and you will see that Michael Gerson has spent several years repeatedly denouncing and attempting to undermine Donald Trump, and the entire MAGA Movement. He has told outright lies about Trump, and about many of us here. He has accused Trump and his supporters of pernicious and persistent racism and bigotry. He has claimed that Trump's only goal was to destroy the entire Republican Party in order to satisfy some sick and selfish needs. Take a look at how this RINO Gerson has misrepresented Trumps phone call to Ukraine President Zelensky, and argues that it was grounds for Impeachment Circus #1--

https://www.dailyherald.com/discuss/20190927/the-process-of-impeachment-is-now-inevitable

Those of us who have eyes to see, and who do not have our heads firmly planted up our ass know better. We took a leap of faith and elected Trump, and most were not disappointed. He did something politicians rarely do. He kept most of his campaign promises.

Trump kept inflation very low. He kept energy prices historically low, and made the U.S. Energy Independent, unlike the total disaster Biden, who is sucking the Strategic Oil Reserve dry. He renegotiated unfair Foreign Trade Deals, and brought a lot of Industrial Production back to the U.S. by lowering taxes and regulations that drove jobs away. He kept our Southern Border secure. He got NATO countries to start paying more of the enormous defense costs they were dumping on the U.S. He kept Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and our other geopolitical adversaries in check, and kept us out of costly and deadly wars. He increased wages and minority employment. He did all this and much more in only four years. And he did it all while under constant and withering attacks from Liberal Democrats and the Liberal Left Press. This does not sound like a self-absorbed man who set out to destroy the nation and the Republican Party.

Very important to most of us here, but not at all to rocky mtn bill and the other Liberals who support anti-gun Democrats... Trump actually respected and protected our 2nd Amendment Gun Rights, and supported our NRA. Trump gave us THREE pro 2nd Amendment Supreme Court Justices, while Biden and his predecessor Obama gave us THREE anti-gunners who lied about their respect for the Gun Rights of law abiding citizens. That is the only reason our Gun Rights are not in imminent danger right now.... No thanks to Billy and other gunowners who vote Democrat.

This is not the first time that rocky mtn bill and other Liberal Left Democrats have attempted to mislead us. Billy bashed Trump literally dozens of times here, and told us how bad for the nation he was. He said the same about every Republican President for as long as I have been here. He joined his Liberal Left Brethren in telling us how they were nothing but evil racists who were hell-bent on destroying the environment and stealing our Social Security and retirements. Funny we don't hear them now... since Biden/Democrat policies have gutted over 20% on average from 401-K's, and the dollars we have left are worth less and less every day as costs continue to rise.

I am surprised that John Roberts has attempted to reason with Billy. I gave up on that long ago, and just throw the Bullshit Flag when I see him drop a steaming pile:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
2 members like this
#622258 Nov 18th a 10:14 PM
by ChiefAmungum
ChiefAmungum
Reading this makes me think. Think about how things were, and how things are. I well remember when some game, read upland birds, were plentiful in many places that they are not now. It was a blessed event when I was young to see a deer. Now they are vermin. Have not seen any flammable rivers in a while. Things change and not always due to any political party's leanings. Farming is completely different from the '60's. Good bye upland birds, hello deer in the SE and most of the mid west. The shift of population from rural/small town has removed most young people's exposure to hunting, fishing or any other connection to the land or sporting outdoors. Single motherhood/uninvolved fathers that may have hunted or fished does not help. The young today are not exposed to hunting or fishing now as they once where. We are dying out. Leave my guns the hell alone! I'm not a criminal nor do I wish to be made one by politician's acts.

Chief
2 members like this
#622275 Nov 19th a 01:49 AM
by craigd
craigd
Originally Posted by rocky mtn bill
....As hunters, we can set aside questions of gun control. We're in no danger of losing hunting firearms. What we're in eminent danger of losing is....
Please ignore this bill, for a bit, I wanted to point out to nca that faux civility is extremely offensive, in the most polite and respectful way. Hey bill, next time, can I dictate our most eminent danger? It would only be fair, wouldn't it?

True story, I have a friend in your home state that took five coyotes within seconds of each other. His best stand ever, and not possible without a suppressor and AR platform 'hunting' rifle, plus other neat stuff. The 'yotes are really wooly with impressive pelts now, but to the point, why bother helping you with your pet cause, when you want to take a responsible human's and hunter's firearms?
2 members like this
#622385 Nov 20th a 09:55 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Well the thread hasn't been locked yet, and I've been thinking hard about trying to answer Ted's question regarding the teachings of Jesus. And since "gun control" is on-topic in this off-topic and unfortunate thread, here goes.

First we have to establish some important hermeneutic (Scripture interpretation) principles
2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All Scripture is inspired by God and useful…”
The words of Moses, David, Isaiah, Habakkuk, Jesus, Peter or Paul are equally authoritative, but some Scripture is obviously of greater importance and application to us today (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

Application of Scripture requires some understanding of context:
What did these words mean in the original language?
What did these words mean to the original hearers ie. what issue/problem was being addressed?
What do other passages of Scripture say about this issue ie. “Scripture interprets Scripture.”

Understanding the context requires understanding the time period (Dispensation) of God’s revelation.
Abraham did not have the Law of Moses
The Law of Moses was given to specific people at a specific time ie: the purity, health, and sanitary laws are no longer applicable. The temple worship directives ended with the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D., and the sacrificial system of atonement ended when Jesus the Lamb of God became sin for our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21) and as our substitute willingly suffered, bled and died on the cross (but that was not the end of the story hallelujah!)
And many of the individual and community behavioral laws no longer apply. Even the Ultra-orthodox Haredim of Israel no longer stone a kid who talks back to his parents.
But the 10 Commandments are eternally applicable, as are the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount (a good place for Ted to start).

Just because a 21st century issue is not specifically addressed in Scripture, God has provided every guide that we need to make God honoring and glorifying decisions.
The words “Only Fans” are not in the Bible, but there is plenty of warning about “guarding our eyes” and the dangers/consequences of sexual sin. Proverbs 23:26,
Job 31:1a

So what does the Bible say about defense of self and others?

Leviticus 19:6b (KJV)
Thou shalt not stand against the blood of thy neighbour.
Lo taamod al dam réakha.
“Thou shall not stand idly by the shedding of the blood of thy fellow man.”

God commands us to prevent the shedding of innocent blood. And when life is involved, all Sabbath laws may be suspended to safeguard the life or health of the individual, the principle being pikkuah nefesh doheh Shabbat – [rescuing a] life in danger takes precedence over the Sabbath.

Moses rescued the Midianite women in Exodus 2:17

Deuteronomy 10:18, Isaiah 1:17, Psalm 82:3, Proverbs 31:9 command us to defend those who are unable to defend themselves; widows, orphans, the poor and needy, and the oppressed.

Jesus referenced this principle in Luke 14:5 when he was criticized for healing a man on the Sabbath.
Then he asked them, “If one of you has a child or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?”


Self-defense and defense of others requires weapons
In OT or NT times, as today, whoever had the power chose who could have weapons.
When the men of Israel were faced with the overwhelming force of the Philistines in 1 Samuel 13, only Saul and Jonathan had swords, but by Jonathan’s boldness and an act of God, Israel was rescued.

When Nehemiah was building the wall (of protection) after returning to Jerusalem he and his men did have weapons, and were fully prepared to use them in self-defense:
Nehemiah 4:9
We prayed to our God and posted a guard day and night to meet this threat.
v. 16-18
From that day on, half of my men did the work, while the other half were equipped with spears, shields, bows and armor. The officers posted themselves behind all the people of Judah who were building the wall. Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other, and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked.
v. 23
Neither I nor my brothers nor my men nor the guards with me took off our clothes; each had his weapon, even when he went for water.

When Rome conquered a people group, they (usually) killed the leaders (often by public crucifixion), disarmed the populace, sent some as slaves to Rome, and gave the remaining people the choice of submitting to Roman rule, keeping the peace, and paying taxes…or dying too.

Jesus referenced self-defense – but as a parable and in the context of demon possession – in Luke 11:21
“When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.”

When Jesus sent the Twelve (Luke 9) and his disciples (Luke 10) into a physically dangerous environment, He did not tell them to take (physical) weapons.

But Peter was armed with a sword when Jesus was arrested (John 18:10)


So what does God think about weapon control?
My Anabaptist distant cousins, Amish and Mennonite, believe Scripture teaches pacifism and non-self-defense.
It is the opinion of most Evangelicals that God expects men to be priests (spiritual leaders), providers and protectors; starting with their family (including their church family) but also extending to those who can not protect themselves. Obviously the right to self-protection extends to women.
Our church has an off-duty uniformed officer at the entrance to the campus every Sunday morning. In our church are several retired or currently serving police officers, and lots of civilians are also legally carrying concealed.

What does God think about the right to own a RPG? He expects us to work that out. Humbly and faithfully applying His Word, and to His glory and honor.

He does demand that we be good citizens and obey the civil authorities however.
Most Evangelicals believe that requirement ends when the authority demands we do something God forbids, or forbids us to do something that God commands, which IMHO includes protecting my family
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/christians-and-government

So in closing I leave Lonesome with Oliver Cromwell, at the Battle of Edgehill in 1642, to his Roundhead troops in that opening fight of the English civil war, ''Put your trust in God, my boys, but mind to keep your powder dry.''
(Not reported until 1834 in the poem "Oliver's Advice" by William Blacker)
2 members like this
#622204 Nov 18th a 12:08 AM
by craigd
craigd
ditto
1 member likes this
#622222 Nov 18th a 12:30 PM
by nca225
nca225
Originally Posted by John Roberts
Noted. So am I a Christian. But can you explain why you are not a conservative? Most gun owners and Second Amendment supporters are. What is so attractive about liberal thought and causes that enamor you? There are many times more conservative voices out there for morality and sanity than liberal ones.
JR

Thank you for asking John. I do not want to answer for Bill, and I think I would rather wait a minute before answering myself, ere I draw the wrath of the board, but were he or I or the few others to politely offer an answer, do you think that could be done without devolving into a fight?
1 member likes this
#622248 Nov 18th a 04:37 PM
by John Roberts
John Roberts
"Tolerance is the last virtue of a man without principle."- G. K. Chesterton

"And gradually, though no one remembers exactly how it happened, the unthinkable becomes tolerable. And then acceptable. And then legal. And then applaudable."- Joni Eareckson Tada

JR
1 member likes this
#622272 Nov 19th a 01:30 AM
by craigd
craigd
Originally Posted by nca225
....My invitation stands craig. Bill tendered a very civil response. Lets see how well it sits.
No he didn't, but thank you for ignoring my faux civility request.
1 member likes this
#622269 Nov 19th a 12:58 AM
by Ted Schefelbein
Ted Schefelbein
The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree....


Best,
Ted
1 member likes this
#622265 Nov 18th a 11:37 PM
by Ted Schefelbein
Ted Schefelbein
Drew,
I was totally serious when I asked. Truly, I was.

But, I was thinking of the leftists in my orbit, and to a one, they are completely dismissive of the notion of the golden rule, an afterlife, the notion of a superior being, the notion of salvation through Jesus Christ, or the notion of sin, or sin coupled to repentance. Most claim to be atheists. A very good friend (as long as we don’t discuss politics, if you get my drift) is the choir director of a large Baptist church in San Francisco, and flat out denies the existence of anything associated with a spiritual being.

Let that sink in.

Given the tasks, Chris and Lonny didn’t disappoint-0-2 was what I expected, and got.

Best,
Ted

________________________________________________________________________
I was told one day by a preacher to find God, before he found me. Went pheasant hunting, today.
It’s all good.
1 member likes this

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