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Thread Like Summary
BrentD, Prof, canvasback, DoubleTake, eeb, Geo. Newbern, greener4me, HistoricBore, Parabola, Stanton Hillis, Ted Schefelbein
Total Likes: 24
Original Post (Thread Starter)
by ed good
ed good
do you have a shortage of 2 1/2 cartridges?

we certainly do here in the former colonies, and even further west over two mountain ranges, until you finally reach the big blue ocean...
Liked Replies
by Imperdix
Imperdix
Originally Posted by PALUNC
I recently went to Hull Cartridge web site and sent them a message that it was wide open here in the U.S. for their cartridges. Problem is I suppose is all the UK shell manufactures are only producing steel and bismuth shells now. No lead as it is banned in the UK

Incorrect,plenty of lead 21/2" cartridges available .Lead has not been banned yet in the UK !!!!!!
5 members like this
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Richard Atkins in 2021
https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/reviews/ammunition/non-toxic-ammunition
BioAmmo Blue...launches a new type of shot that comprises an alloy mix of four metals: bismuth, tin, zinc and aluminium.
With none of the ingredients being so dense as lead, the alloy pellets are obviously lighter, size for size, than lead. 10 Blue alloy pellets weighed 15.4 grains and 10 No 5 lead weighed 19.6 grains. (That is about 22% less)
The crush test figures show the pellets are substantially harder than lead shot...(though) substantially softer than steel, but we must assume that pellets are still best kept away from barrel walls.
Speed of the load was 1371 fps at 2.5 meters from muzzle, which would be close to 1400 fps at the SAAMI 3 feet standard.
Pressure of the 27 gram = .95 oz. load was 8688 psi


https://egunroom.com/bioammo-blue-shotgun-cartridges/
This alloy is softer than steel but slightly harder than lead: using the Vickers hardness test lead has an HV (the unit of hardness) of 45, steel has an HV of 120, whilst Bioammo’s alloy sits between them with an HV of 60


BioAmmo USA
https://bioammo.es/archivos/2021/12/BIOAMMO-USA.pdf
3 members like this
by LeFusil
LeFusil
Here’s my unscientific analysis of steel shot…..when compared to lead…..or other “heavy” non tox stuff…..steel shot is in a class all its own when it comes straight up pure SUCK. I hate the stuff. I shoot about a case to a case and a half each waterfowl season and have done so for over two decades. I shoot good quality stuff, I have patterned it, I’ve adjusted chokes, etc to give the absolute best quality performance possible and it still sucks in regards to stopping power or killing. I’ve shot mallards and blew them up like pillows only to watch them fly off. Sad thing is, I know they’re dead birds flying. It pisses me off. I don’t like wounding anything. I don’t sky bust, I decoy birds, shots are within 20 to 40 yrds.
I shoot too many birds to justify going strictly to other non tox. I just can’t afford it. I only use bismuth or TM when I use a classic double on nice days usually late season.
3 members like this
by HistoricBore
HistoricBore
I have been dismantling and weighing various steel loads, plus one BioAmmo load. Their pellets, of that alloy above, are 15% LIGHTER than mild steel, unlike pure Bismuth, which is 15% heavier/ more dense than mild steel. Shot size 5 measured between 3.0 and 3.2mm in diameter.

I have yet to fire any though. We will see. Should be OK at close range.

HB
2 members like this
by trw999
trw999
Originally Posted by greener4me
As for the post above suggesting that an alloy mixture of Bi,Alum,Tin Zinc can reproduce the ballistics of Pb seems wishful thinking .... excepting anybody with basic grounding in physics and chemistry?

I do not act in any capacity other than a driven game shot with a desire to ensure I kill my game rapidly and cleanly. I have doubts about the effective lethality of steel shot compared to lead. I also have doubts about the use of steel shot fired through a lovely old English game gun, such as those I use.

I am well aware that tests have been carried out by game shots, in the field, claiming they shot steel through old English guns and noticed no difference from lead. However, I have chosen to look at other alternatives to lead than steel, the lethality of which I have concern about. Although bismuth is clearly the favoured alternative, it is expensive and the more so if you like to use your chosen game cartridge to practice at clays during the off season. That is why I was interested in trialing the Bio Ammo Blue for myself.

In quoting what Bio Ammo say about their mixture (in brackets in my post) I would point out that they say ".. producing performance similar to that of lead." They do not claim that it can 'reproduce the ballistics of Pb'. Pedantic of me perhaps, but I am most interested in the lethality of their ammunition.

Diggory wrote a good little article on BioAmmo Blue last year, here: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/blue-is-the-colour Since then they have started to manufacture 67mm cases.

Tim
2 members like this
by JohnfromUK
JohnfromUK
[quote

I am well aware that tests have been carried out by game shots, in the field, claiming they shot steel through old English guns and noticed no difference from lead. [/quote]

Well I have met a few who, in the field, wouldn't notice a difference if there was no shot at all!

Seriously though, the main availability issue here (UK) seems to be for suitable non toxic ammunition (and particularly steel) compatible with 2 1/2" chambers. There are some advertised, but actually getting your hands on a box to try seems impossible. In theory, you can get 1000 to order, but no one I have found locally will sell you just a box to try. I do not want to buy 1000 of something that is 'no good' or on which the wads degrade with time quite quickly.
I have read very 'mixed' things about Eleys "Pro Eco Wads" .......... many not being at all impressed.
2 members like this
by HistoricBore
HistoricBore
I have just re-read Diggory's article, where he states that the BioAmmo alloy is more dense than mild steel. I took one apart last week and twenty of its size 5 pellets (3.0 to 3.2mm diameter) weighed 15% LESS than twenty mild steel pellets (3.0mm diameter) from either Gamebore or Lyalvale.

Has anyone else done any similar tests??

HB
2 members like this
by mc
mc
Well Stan fallow the money on any study
2 members like this
by HistoricBore
HistoricBore
I agree with Imperdix - there are plenty of 2 1/2" cartridges here. In fact the standard training cartridges for clays are ALL 2.5" (or65mm) length, such as the excellent Hull CompeX loads in 21 or 28 gram loads (that's 3/4 or one of your old Imperial ounces.

I have just come back from shooting high pheasant in the Scottish Borders with my Webley 600 and Hull High Pheasant cartridges, using 30 grams of size 5 lead shot. Works fine. Anything else heavier is unpleasant.

There are four British ammo companies active here: Hull, Lyalvale (also based in Hull), Eley Hawk (now under Spanish ownership and Gamebore. All offer plenty of choices. There are now even a few 2.5" cartridges with steel shot, which is a bit of a challenge because of the need for a bioderadeable plastic wad to contain the 30% more bulky steel shot. Hull have a new one ounce load just released. I have used the Lyalvale Earth Wad loading (roll crimp over a wad) with some success, and have some Gamebore Regal ones to try.

So all is not lost!

HB
1 member likes this
by Parabola
Parabola
Currently Eley VIP Bismuth £1,359/1000 as against Eley Grand Prix (lead) £409/1000.

So on a driven day if you shoot 4 boxes your day will cost you £95 more, which is likely to be a small fraction of the overall costs of your day.

Not that I could afford either!
1 member likes this
by Stanton Hillis
Stanton Hillis
This company is combining ...

Aluminum @ 2.70 g/cm3
Tin @ 5.765 g/cm3
Zinc @ 7.13 g/cm3 and
Bismuth @ 9.31 g/cm3

....... and claim that their alloy of the above is "producing performance similar to that of lead", which is 11.43 g/cm3?

C'mon, man. Do the math. They've got to be playing fast and loose with the word "similar".

Maybe the same outfit that is still trying to convert lead into gold?

In comparison to premium steel waterfowl loads bismuth loads are not that high. Shoot at a couple cripples swimming away two or three more times and the "savings" on the price soon put you upside down. What I never understood is this ..... if lead was poisoning ducks and you had copper coated lead shot available already, which would prevent any contact of lead with the duck's digestive system, why was copper coated lead shot banned, like the old, excellent Luballoy? The shot the ducks were ingesting from the bottom of the lakes and marshes would have been totally undamaged, leaving the copper plating intact. I believed at the time it was all a knee jerk reaction by federal authorities, and over the ensuing years I've found nothing to change my opinion.

The best I've ever shot on ducks was six for six, with my HE Fox and handloaded 1 1/4 oz. Bismuth Co. no. 4s. If you do that with steel you'd better really pick your shots, because extra shots at cripples count against your average.
1 member likes this

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