doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - reloading 12 gauge 2"

Does anyone reload 12 gauge 2" shells? I am curious about it, and I find only 2 loads on Hodgdon's sight, zero recipes on Alliant's site, and a search of this forum turns up very little on 2" at all in the last few years, nothing to do with reloading. BPI and Precision Reloading do not list any 2" hulls, and I don't think they have any special wads for them either.

Is this strictly reduced inventing one's own recipes and cutting down longer plastic hulls and reloading with hand tools and fiber wads? I have an old press that I was thinking I might convert to loading 2" hulls, but what's out there for recipes and components?

I'm getting too old to do the picture hosting shuffle, here's a link to a file..

Chas. Hellis

Hellis research was kind enough to provide the following...

"Thank you for your enquiry for Hellis gun number 4135. I am happy to help.

Gun number 4135 is described in their sales ledger as a 12 bore double barrelled A & D ejector with 26" barrels, 2" chambers and 2 triggers (rel ej 12 / 2" ).

It was built and placed into stock on the 31st of October 1936 and sold in November of the same year to Wilson for £25. This model was named by the company as the Reliable

Hoping this information is of some help to you, "

And you're correct, great gun to carry for grouse/woodcock.

I've been working on 2" loads for not quite a year now. I bought at auction a 2" Arrieta a while ago. I've run all my tests with Precision Reloading testing. What I've found is cut down reifenhauser plastic and Federal paper (haven't tried Remington or Fiocchi paper but Winchester is a no go) are the the best, couldn't get AA formed hulls to work. The powders that Ive tried have been Green Dot, Bullseye, Clays and Titewad. The best results I've had so far is using Clays with Ballistic 12x12 gas seal and a 3/8" wad with either 6 point fold or roll crimp, both 7/8oz. and 3/4" oz. Bullseye is also very good but a lot dirtier. The average pressure/velocity I get with Clays is: 7267/1233, 7/8 oz 6pt. fold; 5498/1233 3/4 oz. 6 pt. fold. With Bullseye: 7795/1199, 7/8 oz. 6 pt. fold. The roll crimps reduce the pressure only very slightly on average and a very sight increase in velocity. It's about a horse apiece between roll and star crimp and I use one or the other depending on the bulk of the powder. I found that Green Dot and Titewad and Green Dot give give overall higher pressures for the same velocities than Clays or Bullseye.
In trying to get a full fiber load I tried .135 and .200 nitro cards and 3/8 wads. All were inconsistant but Clays showed promise. By using a 1/2" wad with the nitro card I got a better seal. I've just sent out to Precision some plastic and paper hulls using Clays and fiber components...we'll see.

I got the Powell (Lot 2201). It came from an American collector.

Brent,

I hunt wild pheasant and quail with my 2” gun. I hunt over setters so the shots are within 20-30 yards. I use RST 15/16 oz loads of #5 or #6. If I hunt with a 2 1/2”, the load is 1 oz so not much difference in the lead charge. Good luck on your search.

Ken

Brent,

Thanks for posting the pic. Kansas has been tough hunting the last 5 years. This year I got lucky. The Gordon is now 10 and the Red is now 3.

Btw: it’s an H&H 2” instead of a Powell.

Ken

I was fortunate to purchase a 2" 12 gauge last year. I had never seen one but the opportunity arose and I made a quick decision to add it to my collection. It is marked "Kimball Arms Co Woburn Mass", "for 2 inch case only", "Grade A", "Made in England" and "20th Century".
There is little doubt that the gun was made by Skimin & Wood as the gun's serial number falls in line with the numbers used by that maker for the year 1937.
It weighs 5 lb 3.3 oz, has a LOP of 14 1/8", 27" barrels choked modified and full and proofed for 7/8 oz of shot.
I loaded a handful of shells about a month ago using a conservative amount of 7625 powder and 7/8 oz of shot together with a plastic shotcup with the petals clipped off, and a rolled crimp. When the weather improves I will give the gun a go at some clay targets.
I have a picture ready to post but can't figure out how to do it. Hopefully, another day.
Bill

I've got two sets of pictures to post.

First, Ken's H&H at work in Kansas. Pretty handsome dogs, Ken! I loved hunting KS back in the early 80s.



And then Bill's Kimball. Really nice looking gun, Bill.





Any more? Post them or send them to me and I will get them asap.

Brent

Brent,

GLS was loading 2” shells a few years ago. You may want to PM him. I don’t know if he’s still finding components. I’m still using RST shells and hoping they can source components before my supply runs out.

Ken

I have found looking at 7/8 loads it is possible to find one that will fit a roll crimped 2in trimmed hull.

When unable to find 2.5 loads, I found many 1 oz and 1 1/8oz 2.75 loads that fit roll crimped 2.5

The British eventually approved a lighter proof for 2" 12's. I believe that was about the same time that they changed from the 1925 proof rules to the 1954 proof rules. (The "tons" rules.) Found the reference. Here it is, from Vic Venters' book "Gun Craft", from former Birmingham proofmaster Roger Lees: "In general, it may be said that under the new rules of proof (reference to 1954 rules) no arm will receive a more severe proof than hitherto. Some, such as the 12 bore 2 inch and 4 and 8 bore guns, will now receive a less severe proof than they received heretofore."

More recently, when Arrieta made some 2" 12's, those guns were given a heavier proof than British 2" 12s. The guns themselves were also heavier, weighing as much as some light British 2 1/2" 12's.

Loads listed here for 2 inch

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

But I like Red Dot and 7/8 ounce shot

Mike

I loaded Clays, AS30N, the Australian version. The current powder from Canada, APS350, is slightly different I am told. I never loaded plastic hulls, just Federal paper and roll crimped them all. At the time I had about 30,000 Federal paper hulls and I thought a paper hull was more fitting for a 2" double. I would trim them in lots of 50 when my 2 3/4" hulls started to have their end fray but before they started pinholes above the brass. I tried Bullseye and did not mind the dirty bore but they seemed louder. If I had to load today I might look at 20/28 or Winchester 572 loads. They would require testing but I have a lot of respect for those powder in lighter loads.

Brent, most 2" chamber guns were made in the 1930's. When they first came out the Proof House insisted on the same Proof Charge as for 2 1/2" chamber guns hence the early ones showing 1 1/8th.ounce on the marks. Eventually, the Gun Trade and Proof House reached a compromise and Proof Tested them for a lighter load. They were never intended to shoot anything more than 7/8th. ounce loads. I do load and use Vectan AS powder which may not be available to you. Here in the U.K. Lyalvale make ammo but they have plastic wads and can also be a bit smart on recoil. Luckily Eley still make them with a nice felt wad and are much easier to shoot. They are fast handling guns that give very good patterns. It would be hard to find one made new now unless someone could find an old action that had been lying about in some old Gunmaker's cupboard and could be finished. They can be sourced second hand and often fetch a premium price over longer chambered guns. I am pleased to own a little 2" chambered Tolley. These guns weigh around 5 1/2 pounds. Lagopus.....

My 1936 Hellis 2" is proofed for 7/8oz. but the guy I got it from gave me a bunch of RST's that are 15/16oz. So far so good....

Rob,
That's a really nice gun. I imagine it is as sweet to shoot as it is to look at.


Since Skimin & Wood seem to be responsible for so many of the 2" guns, among all Vintage 12x2" guns out there, what proportion of them are boxlock vs. sidelock? Other than a couple of off the charts Purdey's I think I have only seen boxlock guns so far. Are sidelocks super rare down here below the stratosphere?

Since some of the prices included cents I would assume so.

I called, it includes the buyer’s premium but not the 5% sales tax. I also think with ~20 2” guns for sale at the same time, the prices were a little depressed vs. selling 2or 3 2” guns at a time. There were some nice 2” guns sold on that day.

Ken

Your gun appears to be a twin to my Hellis. (although mine is a BLNE, not a BLE like yours) Don't know if you know this but in your last photo the one of the barrel flats, there appears to be the initial "J.A." marked on a barrel. Joseph Asbury is regarded to be one of the best barrel makers of this era and made barrels for many gunmakers. My 12 ga. H. Atkin and 16 ga. Arthur Ilsley, as well as my Hellis, bear his mark. This was pointed out to me by our friend in the UK, Lagopus. Will you give me the Hellis contact info via PM so I can learn more about mine? Thanks. Gil

I have correspondence from a few years ago from a member here about Asbury.

Brent,

Those guns are priced pretty high. I’ve seen a few dominions in the $7k price range and Royals in the $20k range—still not inexpensive. Graham MacKinley had a 2” Dickson RA a few years ago that weighed 5lbs 15oz (not much lighter than some 2.5” RA). Also, WR made some 2” guns.

Ken

Bill (and anyone else) email me pictures and I'll post them.

Brentd@iastate.edu will work

Years ago we had a member in the club at which I shoot who was a former NBA guard (not a name anyone would recognize - sort of an end of the bench player) who was about 6' 6" and shot a British side by side of a make I no longer remember with 28 inch barrels and a very long (like 16") length of pull. I cannot imagine where he could have found it, but the gun and especially the shells drew a crowd every time he used the gun. Even with the very long stock, it was well under six pounds. I was fascinated by the gun and thought seriously about trying to find one (of more normal dimensions), but never pursued it. I ended up with a 6 pound 3 ounce Ferlib 12 gauge with 70cm barrels instead that works quite well for my "carry all day, shoot once or twice" gun, particularly with 7/8 or 1 ounce loads at about 1150 fps.

That being said, if someone were to offer to give me one today, I wouldn't turn it down.

Here's a man who lives in Asia that has an S&W depicted which bears the same warning:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=356006&page=1