doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - Two inch Twelve gauge

I bought a 12 gauge gun for 2" shells. Where can I buy the shells? Or do I have to start reloading again?...Geo

My current lead shot hand/reloading is limited to 28 ga. and 2” 12 ga., both of which are either prohibitively expensive in 28 ga. for high volume shooting commercial loads or currently unobtanium in the 2” 12 ga. load. I own two 85 year old 2” 12 ga. doubles made by Skimin & Wood but rebadged by other English gunmakers. Why shoot them? Because that’s what I want to do. They are perfect woodcock and quail guns over dogs which is my preferred method of hunting. Both weigh under 5.5 lbs. In handloading the 12 ga. loads, I relied on BP’s short hulls brochure for ¾ and 7/8 oz. loads. Both guns were proofed in England for the 7/8 oz. load. A friend in England sent me a recipe using fiber wads and Vectan AS which was tested by an English proof house. I bought 4 lbs of the powder two years ago from Graf at a clearance price of $14 per pound with a lowered hazmat fee. I am trying different powder weights to reduce velocity. His recipe is in addition to the ones from BP.
The BP 3/4 oz. load utilizes nitro card and cork spacers. It wouldn’t shoot consistent velocities and had several hundreds of fps differences. The 7/8 oz. load using the plastic gas seal of BP was consistent. However, I want a velocity consistent load using old school fiberwads without plastic. Another reloader and hunter from AZ unselfishly sent me a short article published in 1961 in the American Rifleman. The author described a metal cardboard wad punch and die. The author used heavily waxed cardboard from milk cartons which are now covered with plastic rather than waxed. The AZ reloader (borderbill) has skillfully made his excellent tool and die from steel on a lathe. The article mentions hardwood tool and die as being useful but perhaps not as durable. A friend turned and made a press for me out of hardwood. It produces the wads. Since my loads are primarily for quail and woodcock, durability shouldn’t be a problem as fewer shells are used in the field than on a skeet field. My cardboard is cut with a punch out of a cardboard box with cardboard thickness .019”. I impregnate it with paraffin wax by shaving bits of it on a sheet of aluminum foil on the cooking surface of a cast iron skillet. I place the discs on the melted paraffin until it fully penetrates the material. The cup shaped cardboard gas seal was initially difficult to insert in the shell. It resisted efforts to keep it a right angle to the axis of the hull. I solved this by making a tube out of a low brass unfired hull in which I was able to insert a wad backwards into the tube. With an antique rammer, I moved it to the opposite end of the tube. To keep the tube with the cupped wad flush with the to be loaded hull, I made a bushing from another section of hull and split it down one side so it would open enough to hold both the wad tube and the hull to be loaded in proper alignment. Pushing it with the full diameter rammer into the hull to be loaded was accomplished with it riding at right angle until firmly seated into the powder, open end on the powder. A nitro card followed along with a 3/8” thick Alcan Bluestreak fiber wad.
I collect old reloading tools. I like the French tools as they are made from European boxwood which is a rock hard wood. It is also beautiful. One tool that I find useful is a tapered rammer which expands the mouth of a fired roll crimped plastic hull to where it is easily reloaded. One such hull is in the photo of three tools. The man who made my wad press also made a maple tapered rammer which will round out the mouths of the fired 28 ga. hulls and the 2” 12 ga. hull facilitating reloading. The antique tapered rammer bottomed out on the 2” 12 ga. hull and wouldn’t fit in the 28 ga. hull. If I don’t round out the 28 ga. AAHS hulls, my PW 375 loaded wad intermittently will snag a star point resulting in a defective crimp that sticks in the sizing die making removal without cutting the hull impossible. The tapered rammer cures it. The tapered maple rammer works in hulls 28 ga. through 10 gauge.
I chrono the loads with my 870. I don’t want to risk the old doubles. Once I get a consistent, satisfactory velocity, then I will have them professionally tested. Until then, more development is needed. I believe the cardboard cupped wad will help with consistency. Preliminary results are encouraging. Both the man who sent me the Rifleman article and I believe inconsistency is caused by the nitro card’s tilting causing non uniform pressure of escaping gases against the load. Plastic wads are far more forgiving with their gas seals. There is good reason that they replaced the old technology—at least as evidenced by my loads so far. Gil

I am a late reader of all these posts about 2 inch chamber 12 bore guns and it may be that my input here is irrelevant or of no interest. But it seemed to me as I have just briefly read all 13 pages of this post that there were questions in some readers/posters mind about the proof pressure differences (if any) between the proof of 2 1/2 inch chambered 12 bore guns and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns via the two proof houses in the UK. I just pulled out my copy of the "RULES OF PROOF 1954" ---"Rules Regulations and Scales made in the month of October 1954" and turned to page 20 (of 45 pages) titled APPENDIX II---"for the proof of barrels and the arms of the first class". This appendix chart shows that for Provisional Proof the loading for both 2- 1/2 inch and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns use the identical proof loads: 266 grains of Tower Proof (T.P.) powder and 1- 1/4 ounces of no. 6 shot. However the Definitive Proof loads for the 2- 1/2 chambered 12 bore guns and the 2 inch chambered guns are different; the Definitive Proof load for the 2-1/2 inch chambered 12 bore gun is 178 grains of Tower Special Proof (T.S.P.) powder and 1- 11/16 grains of no. 6 shot, while the Definitive Proof load for 2 inch chambered 12 bore gun is 170 grains of T.S.P. and 1-5/8 ounce of no. 6 shot.

This data above does not answer the question if both 2-1/2 inch chambered and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns are proofed to the same proof pressure but it give reasonable expectations that the UK provisional proof pressures could the same or even more for the 2 inch chambered gun; and in the case of definitive proof the pressures are very similar.

I also noted from this appendix (as referenced above) that 2-3/4 inch, 2-1/2 inch and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns all were proofed with the same Provisional Proof load as listed above; and I was more than a bit surprised at this.

Kindest Regard;
Stephen Howell

The Provisional Proof is just for the basic tube before any work is undertaken in order to show any flaws. This procedure is nor compulsory but advisable to save a lot of work being done to a faulty tube. Initially, when the 2" chamber guns started to make their appearance, the Proof House insisted in subjecting them to the same Definitive Proof as a 2 1/2" chamber gun and that is why some early 2" guns have the 1 1/8th. ounce mark on the barrel flats. Later a compromise was reached between the Gun Trade and the Proof Houses which resulted in a lower proof requirement for 2" guns.

I've been at the Proof House in Birmingham when Provisional Proof was taking place. If you have access to Greener's 'Gun & its Development' you will see the illustration and there is no change in how it is done other than the powder trail is ignited from an old car battery rather than a percussion gun lock and a piece of string running through a small hole in the wall. A series of bangs as the powder packed tubes go off in rapid succession and then the iron louvres are opened to let the smoke out. Once the 'all clear' goes all the barrel tubes are dug out of the sand beds. All very 'low tech' but it works! Lagopus.....

Drew, here are the first two pages of the pamphlet with no load info. The pamphlet appeared in Diggory's online magazine. Here’s my Hellis. Someone bit the advertisement almost 90 years ago with a more recent bite 3 years ago by me. Is it a “practical”gun? Of course not. Fortunately, I have flat of RST’s and plenty of powder, hulls, wads, etc. to reload with some recipes reportedly well below SAAMI limits by several thousand psi. I’m not a high volume shooter as I don’t shoot clays and my shooting is for game birds only. At 75 years old, just how many seasons of shooting the short hull guns are left on my calendar? In the hunting of game birds for the table, a “practical” shotgun is almost a contradiction in terms. As Chuck H. observed years ago, once one passes a KFC on the way to hunt birds for the table, all vestiges of practicality sail out of the truck’s window.
As for another practical consideration, I just put down a deposit on a 3 week old female French Brittany to learn to hunt doodles and quail from my MuttPak's American Brittanys Abby, 12.5 years old, and Willa, 9. Gil

Drew,

The Lancaster 2” pygmies had problems with shot balling in 2.5” guns in the late 1890s. According to this article Gale the pygmies were the forerunner to the 2” gun. I’ve seen other articles where the Pygmies were made to allow more cartridges to be carried to the shoot. The 2” gun didn’t come out until approximately 1930 and the Pygmies were first brought out in the late 1890s. A long time for a great idea to catch on.

Ken

Doctor Drew, I haven't posted further because I do no have the Powell gun in hand yet. The only pics I have are the ones I posted to begin with. When I get the gun, I'll be happy to provide pics of the action and barrel flats to someone who can post them...Geo

2 inch shells make this Burgess purr like a kitten. You can stuff 7 of them in the magazine and hunt all day without having to reload…

From what I understand the current 1 3/4" shells are not low pressure, especially the Federals. I've shot the the different brands, Federal, Aguila, and Champion and they all have some pretty good recoil. I converted a Mec Jr. for reloading 2" shells and it works great. You can buy the short shell conversion, but that is for 1 3/4" shells so the legs have to be shortened. It's easy enough to make your own raised platform for the Mec Jr. I'd sent in to Precision Reloading for testing a number of 2 inchers to be tested and have come up with some good low pressure fornulas for 3/4 and 7/8 shot loads using Clays, Bullseye and Titewad because that what I have. Velocities all in the 1200 range and with the exception of Titewad where the pressure is higher, the pressures are about 7200 for the 7/8 loads and 5500 for the 3/4. I'm using a Ballistic x12x gas seal, 3/8" waxed fiber and either a roll crimp or 6 point fold. I don't have a web hosting picture site at the moment so I can't post any of these but I'd be happy to send anyone the five of my best.

Not recent but likely relevant

Aguila 12 minishell 1 3/4″ 5/8 oz. shot - 1175 fps - 11,000 psi

Federal 12 1 3/4′ 15/16 oz. shot - 1145 fps - 9,500 psi

Those should spank you pretty good in a 5-lb gun. At least the hulls might be reloadable? FWIW: I never thought of 2-inch guns as being soft recoiling; the whole nature of very-light guns means that you'll be feeling some recoil. I suspect that light loads in a slightly heavier gun would work far-better in taming recoil. Another alternative is a semi-auto.

Brandt professor of the department Of redundancy department

I had a long chat with Tom Armbrust about this. Test guns are all at least 2.75" chambers and maybe 3" for 12 gauge guns. There is no 2" chambered test gun (but there is a guy that will make one for ~$900). Thus, the load is jumping at least 3/4" to the forcing cones and maybe more. Tom said a 2.5" shell will lose about 300# of pressure jumping just that 1/4" in a 2.75" chamber. He did not know what a 2" loss would be, but 1000 lbs would not be an unreasonable guess and much more is possible. This might be worse for fiber wads, which is what I want to test.

In another long chat with the tech at Precision (Bret?), he has no idea at all what the effect might be. None. It never even occurred to him. But safe to way, it is likely that the data will be biased low, and that is dangerous, esp. if you are right on the cusp of a working load threshold (i.e., 8k psi).

I would not use some of the loads that Drew posted for this reason.

I have been getting more recoil sensitive also at 70 yrs old, but forgive me the 2" gun isn't the solution. Light loads relative to the gun weight and a proper gun fit is the solution. 12 ga light 7/8 oz loads in a 7 lb gun are a big help. I also shoot factory 20 ga 7/8 oz loads in a 7 1/2 lb gun. I had a big shooting friend years ago that went through at least 6 2" guns.

What a great price for a great gun. I was looking at the gun but just couldn't get around the adjustable stock. Congratulations.

The Challenger 1 3/4 shells leaded the hell out my barrels. They use a plastic over powder gas seal with some type of collapsible form and no shot cup. The lead must be very soft. My reloads have no problem as I use a waxed wad.

Ballistic products hard waxed wad works well. The same or similar is sold by Precision reloading. These appear to be the same wads that Kent used to use in their fiber loads. I still have a flat of 12's and 20's and I took one of each apart at one time. A friend gave me a whole lot of Winchester Molded Fiber wads and Alcans both of which are waxed and surprisingly haven't dried out. In those lots that I got were a 1000 Lujtic Mono wads. I've been experimenting with these in 2" shells and Fed paper. I've been working at full fiber loads for 2" but had to step back a bit of late. I believe Gil has been pursuing that with some success.

It’s like tying your own flies, Ted.
It extends the breadth of the shooting experience.

Vic Venters is looking into it Gil, and has connections with the Proof House.

1906 Gun Trade handbook : -

WALSRODE -
12G 2" 26-28 grains 1oz shot short case

12G 2 1/2" 29 grains 1 1/8oz Walsrode Co.'s special cases

16G 2 I/2" 27 grains 1oz W....... Co sp.... cases

20G 2 1/2" 25 grains 3/4 to 7/8oz W......Co sp ... cases

From 2008 Brent
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=117121
I spoke with Frank Wiseman (84 years young at the time) about 5-6 years ago about another shotgun I thought might be a Skimin & Wood. Frank informed me in typical Brit understatement, "You know, we had a War." Meaning the Skimin & Wood records were lost to bombing during WW2.

Glad you found such a nice looking gun to scratch that itch. Hope you get a ton of pleasure from using it. Jon.

Limit 7/8 oz. 2 3/4 tons

2” roll crimped paper shells are the most fun looking shells. I used cutdown Federal paper hulls and think paper is just right for a classic double whenever you can find or make them.

GLS

Some photos of my ultra plain Jane Skimin and Wood 2’ BLE. It might help you compare the styles between yours and my original S&W.
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]



I hope these show.

My gun number is 88617

All the best

Skeeterbd

PS: the pictures haven’t shown. I hope some kind soul can make them show up. Thanks.

Wowsa!

I would be honored to reload for that one.

Well done Gil!

Congratulations on the dog to be! I'm also in line for a new pup, but Gus is going to have to handle his 15th season alone again.

Drew,

Without calling H&H in Dallas, I don’t think you can get an exact date. Dallas’s book shows serial #s 34000-34401 as being made 1934-1940 and 1946-1950 for Badminton and Dominion guns.

Ken

The H&H gun was made in 1935. That was the only time they designated the model as Centenary (Henry Holland opened his tobacco shop in 1835) Looks very similar to a gun I imported several years ago and sold back to the H&H NYC branch. Interestingly the Wall thickness was .014", yes 14thou. I pointed this out to Guy Davies as he looked over the gun. He responded "Don't worry about that that's the way we made them"

Reverend Doctor Drew, I finally picked up my Powell gun after a week at the beach. I'm sending you a picture of the barrel flats, but the proof is 1 1/8th oz. Gil, I do not find the JA mark on the barrels ..Geo

2" Arthur Howell & Co.
per https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/fo...ne-know-anything-about-arthur-howell-co/
Nigel Browns, British Gunmakers:
Arthur Howell was recorded at 28 Weaman St. Birmingham in 1909 and became Arthur Howell & Co. in 1917. He remained at Weaman Street until 1942 but may have removed to Whittall Street shortly thereafter. He is recorded as being there in Gun Trade membership at least until 1957.

Similar to the J.W. Lewis 2" on the previous page



SN 7,558 is reported to date to 1937. The SN is 7425, but I can't read the date code



Double Gun Journal Vol. 16 Issue 4 Winter 2005 by Stephen Howell

The above is a re-badged Skimin & Wood. One giveaway is the J.A. initials on the left barrel. While Dickson did make a handful of 2" guns, lock, stock and barrels, this isn't one of them. A lovely gun, nonetheless. Gil

Sourpuss?


Clearly, you didn't know Klunk, or Don Moody.

Best,
Ted

Some new news. On Monday. I was driving home from Michigan and got a phone call from a guy in Mount Vernon, Georgia.

He had gotten my name and number from Tom Armbrust and knew that I was wanting to test 2 inch 12 gauge ammo. Well, it turns out that he has made a test barrel with a 2 inch chamber. Seems like a real nice guy, and I'm looking forward to sending him some loads. Probably later next wee


His name is Bruce Ducksworth at bruce big bore ballistics

130 ben anderson st mt vernon ga 30445
Email 338lapuaba@gmail.com

Wow! 21 pages of comments on 2" guns. You never know what piques peoples' interest. I reloaded for my guns by cutting down long shells. I even had a load for AAs. Roll crimps work best. These guns are light but still fat. I'll take my 28 gauges!

This low resolution ad appeared on ebay listed as 1940.
Griffin & Howe "Featherweight" 2" by "American's premier gunsmiths". No information on an internet search.

Cornell Pubs does not have a c. 1940 catalog repro

Went and remeasured the chambers and they are slightly less than 2.5" which could be the variance in the gauge, definitely not a 2".

Lever moves to the right.

Not great pictures but what I have. Click on picture to enlarge.

I have an unusual C.Hellis. First it has a 3 digit serial number. I measured the chambers and my remarks on my sheet from a number of years ago says, 'Somewhat less than 2.5" Check with shorter gauges" I do not have a shorter gauge and have not checked it. The flats do not have a chamber length stamped on them. I will have to properly check the chambers and get back to this thread. It is also unusual in that the top tang is "bent" to the left (although there are no signs of being bent and almost appears to have been made that way.) and there is cast on. Seems to have been set up for a left hand shooter but I shoot it right handed just fine.

H&H Dominion 2" with 1 oz. proof courtesy of Bro. Venters
The SN is 34052. Could someone please look up the DOM and thanks?

George's Powell SN 15126



The date code is 1954 but still proved 1 1/8 oz. under the 1925 Rules

SAAMI says it another way Brent:
"Maximum average pressure for 2 3/4" and 3” shotgun shells will be 11,500 PSI +/- 900 psi, with some maximum extreme variability not to exceed an uber-max of 12,500 psi +/-900 psi"

So a SAAMI standard shell may actually run 13,400 psi and that would be the "Maximum Individual Service Working Limit" or per CIP "Maximal Statistical Individual Pressure"

And the pressure we should aim for is the "Standard Service" pressure.

Vic Venters, Shooting Sportsman, March-April 2012, “CIP Proof”
“Although the Maximum Mean Pressures for service loads for standard proof (850 BAR) guns are 740 BAR (10,733 psi), CIP regulated cartridge manufacturers typically work to lower pressures...between 450 BAR (6,527 psi) and 650 BAR (9,427 psi) as measured by CIP piezo transducers.”

Pressures published by Burrard in 1955

“Immensely” you say. Exactly, how so? Sometimes, the easiest things, say, a 20 gauge over a 2” 12, are the best. I find less added kludge, not to mention less mental masturbation, along with Easter egg hunts for unobtainable kludge, far more rewarding.

Attempting to relearn to shoot, and undo 50 seasons of muscle memory has been hard enough, and cheap, good enough ammunition has been a blessing. Try shooting off your non shooting shoulder, and let us know how it goes for you. I have friends who gave it up for that reason, including a consulting doctor on my eye surgery. Four boxes of 20 gauge promo loads for $33 is a big help. Those same four boxes could occasionally be sniped for under $5 a box, two years ago, but, stuff changes, no?

Best,
Ted

You wouldn't want a game warden shoving, and counting, these shells into a repeater's magazine tube. Gil

I certainly love my two inch. In fact I killed a grouse with it just an hour ago. I post a picture but I don't have the time right now. When I get back this weekend maybe.

I also received some new pressure data on reloads for 2 inch. Interesting information if anybody is interested in reloading for 1 of these.

My 2x12 is not nearly so fat as you might think. And a whole lot more interesting than just another 28 gauge.

Every damn day. 3 lbs of the finest meats, home-raised duck eggs, fish, and misc other side dishes. He eats well and then some. If I told you our monthly dog-food bill, you would not believe it.

Here is a nice lunch in my picture files.

Ted,

My immense enjoyment in learning about, accruing kaccumulating?), and developing loads for a 2x12 has really nothing to do with learning shoot off the weak side which is on your agenda, but not mine.

So, let's see, what have I enjoyed immensely?
I spent 6 months surfing auctions and dealer websites looking at countless non 2x12s that I would never have enjoyed while tracking down most, if not all, of the 2x12 that have been for sale in the last 6-12 months.

Then, I have enjoyed learning about the history of 2x12s and the diversity (and lack of diversity, which is pretty cool since, in effect, very few people made the 2x12 happen).

Now, I'm wrestling with learning to load where few recipes exist, and I have to figure out my own strategies with the materials I have on hand. I enjoy the challenge, but most of all I enjoy collaborating with several others on this website and other sites who are also experimenting. Interacting with these people has been an immensely enjoyable experience all of its own.

Maybe last, though intangibles are hard to identify so I might be overlooking something, is anticipating opening my hunting season in Minnesota or Michigan and straifing grouse out of the trees and sky with a new and very different gun that i have tuned to the job at hand. Who buys a new gun and doesn't imagine that!?!? Reality, of course, may be much different, but not less enjoyable.

In any event, now I own two 2x12s (soon to be one). I think they are probably the finest two 2x12s to be sold in the last 6 months outside if the 5-figure Purdeys and H&Hs. They are lovely guns, quicker than lightning, and just a whole new dimension to shooting after decades of 6.5-7.5# guns. I could have bought a 20, probably for more money, but anyone could do that. Hell, I could just hunt with my old 870 express. But I don't.

In the end, I am having a grand time that I would not be having without chasing the mythical unicorn that is the 2x12.

Good luck with chasing your own unicorns, whatever they may be. I hope that you will be successful and become less of a sourpus as a result.

Cheers!