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I'm going to be looking at a double rifle tomorrow- 450 3 1/4 "
I know nothing about them and am looking for advice on gauging pros and cons of the gun. Is there a difference between the ordinary caliber designation or were they all Nitro Express?
What should I look for in evaluating the gun? I am fairly proficient in sizing up shotguns but have no experience with double rifles.... What could I use this gun on as far as North American game? If this gun is in good condition and from a reputable maker (english/european)what would be a fair value?
Any value difference on hammer vs hammerless? The gentleman is selling on behalf of a widow and has no information except " you can come over to see it if you want"......I would not normally be interested , but I know the deceased was fairly well heeled and was known to own some rather nice old guns..
thanks and best regards,
JBP

J.B.

Let me give you a quick and very simplified summary of proofs.

If the rifle is the .450 3 1/4" BPE (black powder) the proofs will most likely be ".450 EX." and if London proof it will have the "Crown over V" mark.

Here is a photo of the barrel flats of my .500 BPE, a Purdey with London black powder proofs, made in 1894, the only difference being caliber (.500 EX):



For a .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express you will see nitro proofing, which is quite different.

Here is a photo of the barrel flats of my George Gibbs .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express, made in 1906:



Note that on the nitro gun you see "Cordite 70 - 480 MAX" which is the designation of the cordite load (70 grains cordite, 480 grain bullet).

You also see the nitro proof stamp (the flexed arm holding a schimitar over the letters "NP"). This mark came into use in 1903 and will not be present on an earlier gun.

These proof marks are in addition to the black powder proof marks already discussed, which you see also present.

I am no great expert on proof marks, and this is at most a very incomplete summary. Reference works such as Nigel Brown give extensive details, and even then you will encounter deviations or variations not documented. However, this should be somewhat useful when you look at the rifle today.

The .450 BPE and the .450 3 1/4" NE use the same brass. You can chamber the nitro round in the black powder gun. Don't try anything adventuresome until you have the advice of an expert.

The black powder gun should be lighter than a nitro. It will range between 8 1/2 and 10 pounds. The nitro gun will be 10 pounds or over, even up to 12 pounds for a very heavy one.

You will encounter hammer guns in nitro proof. Some were originally made for nitro, some were re-proofed from black.

Likewise, you will encounter hammerless guns in only black powder proof.

It's important to know the difference.

Value depends on many factors and cannot be estimated from what little information you have at this point.

Feel free to contact me if you want to discuss this further. I might even be interested in the rifle.

Good luck,
Curl

P.S.

Birmingham proof marks are somewhat different, but follow similar patterns.

Hello!
Would you be so kind and tell me what do you think about this double, please?
Its for sale here in Slovakia for 2300euro,as made by scottish Alexander Thomson and son 450 express, seller said that gun has modern rifling for jacketed bullets, made after 1890,barrels are 28inchs long.Thank you very much. Martin

From the width of the action and the original proof marks it appears to have been built as a Black Powder Express.

The added marks do not appear to be any sort of official proof house marking.

Assuming the bores are in good condition and it locks up snugly I would only use it with Black Powder loads or “Nitro for Black” loads which are designed not to exceed black powder pressures.

Do NOT confuse .450 Nitro Express with .450 Nitro for Black, even if they both seem to fit the chamber . It is like the difference between using a heavy steel hammer and a wooden mallet.

Try to get a copy of Graham Wright’s Book “Shooting the British Double Rifle”