This isnt a double question but after years of lurking I cant think of a more knowledgeable group of people to ask.

Im looking for your opinions on the finish of early savage 1899s.

Early 1899s had a deep black finish. This finish covered lines that where in the metal that are visible as the finish wears.



even as the finish wears, it seems to retain its black and gloss.



during this time the forend metal seemed to have the same finish as the receiver.





In the 20s, the finish changed to a less glossy finish



the finish used on the forarm metal also seemed to change. It is often shows more wear than the receiver.






My question is..What type of finish, charcoal, rust, bright polish blue, do the educated finishers here think where used on the early guns and what two finishes might have been used on the late receivers and forend irons.

The early guns were done in a carbonia/charcoal blue. As with most firearm co's. , they found custic blue Much cheaper & converted to using same.

Thank you Ken. Is there a reason the caustic blue might fade faster on the forarm metal?

You might also ask here,

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/40/page/1

Michael,
Thats my usual stomping grounds. Its actually the lack of knowledge of original finish that brings me here. From time to time some one will ask about original finishes on the 99s at the 24 hour campfire and no one seems to have an answer. I dont think that there are any savage records on applied finishes.

It was this question
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...e/4#Post2377749

and an article by SDH in Shooting Sportsman may/june 2006 that got me thinking about asking here.

I would say the forearm metal is much lower grade than the reciver and barrels causeing a difference in colors over time.Remember the cheaper Wichhester 94 frames than lost their blueing about the same time you purchased it off the shelf and they couldn't be reblued.We also have the purple barreled Ruger pistols.The different metals look about the same when new but chance with abit of age.

grogel,

Well I was no help there ;-), I'm not into Savages so I have almost no material on the subject. The place were the Savage collector get together was my only idea, sorry.

Good luck on your search,

I have an opinion here and for what that's worth here goes.
For some reason the metal used in principally lever action rifle receivers doesn't hold blue as was as,for example, the barrels. Anyone who is familiar with Winchester Model 92&94s as well as Savage 99s will know what I'm talking about. I've handled many vintage lever actions with still nicely blued barrels and receivers that have usually turned brown.
Jim

grogel,
The Savage 99 is about my least favorite rifle, that said, I am very interested in firearm finishes. I believe the lines in the first photo are forging marks and I have seen them in Colt, S&W, Marlin etc.mostly on flat surfaces and may be more apparent with the early finishing techniques (burnishing rather than grit polishing?!) may bring them out. (I have succesfully polished and rust blued these marks with no visiblility. They can show horribly with re-case coloring)
(Poor snapshot that shows forging lines in 1913 vintage Colt New Service, charcoal blued?)

There are a lot of assumptions abut early finishes and I've heard many, many folks that seem assured of their knowledge, but so little is even known about Winchester finishes (certainly the most studied and most factory verified) that most instant answers are conjecture. I have been revisiting my own reseach and writing and find much of it based on repeating others rather than original source material?!?!
The answer may be in early Savage technical material, but until someone affords it the research and dedication theat Mr. Petrov has done with his specialty, all you are going to get is speculaion and conjecture.
Sure wish I had better answers.
Your photos offer insight and are great for visual comparisons, unfortunately the color and saturation can be instantly altered by changing the camera exposure, which I often do to present a different 'look' with the same photo.
Ken is probably correct, as is sxs about wear examples, but that has to do with metal type and manufacture as well as finishing process.
Please do keep after it and let us know what you find.

BTW, I had a M-99, just post war (1948?) in the shop a couple of years ago with an absolutely wonderful rust blue job. I'd have been pround to say I'd done it! How do I know it was rust blue besides the look? With the wood off you could see the individual swab marks and unblued metal that I've seen so many times with my own rust bluing.

I don't own a 99 but ever so often I run across one I could live with. One thing about the 99, it has a great amount of canvas for the engraver.

G&H & Fugger

You bet Michael, Here's a scan of a G&H 99 (Accurate Rifle cover 9/01) with engraving I attributed to Fugger(?!)

Thanks for all the input. I expected that I would be getting speculation and conjecture. But I also knew that I might get some of the most knowledgeable gun finish speculation available by asking here.

SDH, As for being you least favorite rifle, I wont hold it against you.

Great Photos!
OK, conjecture: Top three rifles, charcoal blue, next three rust blue with rust bluing over case colored takedown forend (hard steel-hard to rust blue, doesn't wear well, try a needle file in a hidden place.) All brls probably rust blued.
The blue on my old Colt looks very much like the blue-turning-brown of your second photo.

Does the third vintage photo show a skeletonized 99?

I'm going to rethink my knife and cartridge belt choices for mule deer hunting this year!
Best,
Steve

Interesting photos. The second picture marked "Riggall' would be F.H. Riggall a Canadian guide, writer and friend of Whelen's. I also see one of the Bear hunters has a Ross sporting rifle.

I sent a link to this thread to the caretaker of the rifle pictured below. He is not a member so I don't know if he will post or not.

If he doesnt post, hes welcome to email me at ggroshel@msn.com if he would like to share more photos of that one




the cutaway rifle is missing part of its stock.






so there is one vote for caustic blue and one for rust blue on the newer rifles. How would one tell the difference?
was one used more than the other by us gunmakers?

Steven, The Fugger Fox did get to eat!

Michael, if you are going to show off rifles like that, it shure would be nice for some more pictures and descriptions! Sort of a bait and tease this way.

That highwall as a really interesting lever, but I would think it hard to shoot if that rifle has much recoil. Iwould like to see and hear more about that particular rifle.

Brent

Brent,

I’m not sure I remember all the particulars of this rifle. One of the resent owners of this rifle is a member of the forum and I’ll let him tell you about it, if he sees it.

grogel,
Take off the wood. Rust bluing is applied with a wipe or swab of some sort and often the metal under the wood is left bare in some places. Caustic bluing is a dip method and all surfaces, even inside the bore are blued.
Caustic blueing looks more like your early examples with a deep blue-black and very shiny surface. The rust blued 99 I saw had a very fine matte surface with some shine.