As a gun buyer on auction sites I was really disappointed in the number of sellers who put in their description " NO SALES TO CALIF" along with some very dispariging remarks. I have purchased 2 shotguns which had to be sent according to the new law, one from New York and the other from Pennsylvania, neither dealer had any problems with the Ca. DOJ. In fact one said that it took 2 minutes to obtain the proper paperwork. Also, I learned from a personal telephone conversation with the Ca. DOJ that a private individual may send a modern longarm to an FFL with out compling with the new law and that it does not have to be sent from an FFL.
Sorry, but I just had to vent.

DT-

As someone who was born here and who's lived in the state for almost all of my life, I'll chime in for a moment here.

Most of the people who I know who share this distinction of actually being from here are salt of the earth, morally sound, good hearted people who do not support the crazy-ass gun-control crap that makes it into the books.

Of the people who I know in this state, few are from here.
Of the people who I know to be avid anti-gun types, most of them are from the midwest.

Furthermore, the majority of the california-bashing I hear has to do with the typical-immigrant (from elsewhere in the 'States) behavior. The typical california-basher will typically not recognize this connection, even when clearly distinguished.

The gun auction site social temper of late in regard to this 'new law' is a great example of the affect of the brand of attitude I would attempt to illustrate, but I think you get the picture.

Granted there are what many could argue to be plenty of guns out here on the west coast, engaging in a boycot-to-the-buyer attempt to limit the supply of firearms into this state does not in any way support any kind of nationalist or constitutional-preservationist agenda.
To the contrary, it is a very extreme form of gun-control.

Too bad these folks can't separate their hatred of the gun-control agenda (this is deserved) from their support of fellow American Sportsmen and firearms owners.
I can see no good reason for them to turn color and join the gun-control machine (as they clearly are doing) and limit the choices and supply chain to their fellow Americans.
Each of these folks who decide to simply boycott sales to Californians is adding to the problem in a much more significant fashion than any waiting period or background check will, as there is no accounting for the individual at all.
This is the worst kind of gun-control there is, short of attempts to seize guns already in the possession of Californians.




I don't see it any other way.




--Tinker

dt:
I think that once a State such as MA,NJ,NY,Il or your own State of California develops a reputation of being hostile to legitimate gun owners many sellers decide it's just not worth it to do whatever is necessary to comply with another ridiculous regulation.
Of course far more ridiculous regulations could become the law of the land in the Months ahead. Of course I and others who watch these developments closely will now be labeled alarmists again. I don't care to engage in another debate on this subject with the very small minority on this board who wish to so this will be my only post on this thread.
The only advice I can offer you is to contact the sellers and try to get them to understand what's legal or go FFL to FFL if you want the item that much.
Jim

Too bad these folks can't separate their hatred of the gun-control agenda (this is deserved) from their support of fellow American Sportsmen and firearms owners.
I can see no good reason for them to turn color and join the gun-control machine (as they clearly are doing) and limit the choices and supply chain to their fellow Americans.
Each of these folks who decide to simply boycott sales to Californians is adding to the problem in a much more significant fashion than any waiting period or background check will, as there is no accounting for the individual at all.
This is the worst kind of gun-control there is, short of attempts to seize guns already in the possession of Californians.

I am with you on this, a few minutes to sell legal sporting arms to fellow gun lovers would be time well spent.

I suppose some of the "no sales to CA" is a form of protest from the dealer.

Some of it certainly can be attributed to dealers not being able to cope with yet another law in their highly regulated business. Unfortunately, some good people of simple background are overwelmed with the large variety of gun laws governing their trade. They sometimes simply shutdown to what they know works and stay within a 'safety zone'.

But, as a California resident (albeit born in the midwest, but 40 of my 52 yrs has been in CA), I'm disappointed that some dealers won't sell to a CA resident.

Born here, raised here, educated here, hoping to be leaving here in about five years, for all the obvious reasons.

One of the good guys on this board had a gun for sale, with note "no sales to CA." I explained the law and its lack of impact on private party sellers (i.e., just ship the gun directly to my FFL, no special paperwork required). He understood, we did the deal (two guns, actually), and everyone is happy. Of all the dumb laws in this state, this is one of the dumbest. We are not alone, I'm afraid your time will come. Condolences in advance.

With all the horror stories about selling/shipping guns, anything new added to the mix would keep ME from selling MY gun to a unfriendly gun state. After all, why let my gun sit in some state gov't place, and you hold-up payment - NO THANKS!
You've guys have made your beds, and as our new Prez says, there are "57" other states to sell to.

I worked in Blythe,CA for eight years. I made many friends there and enjoyed many dove openers, but I was glad to leave. Summers were baaad.

Lowell, you are now part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. You would have the money before you ship the gun, so you are not out anything on the off chance that the gun sits somewhere. The new law only inconveniences a shipping FFL, not private party shippers. And, you ar not selling the gun to "a (sic) unfriendly gun state," but to another hunter/shooter/collector who happens to reside in an unfriendly state. You need to start paying attention and quit shooting from the lip.

Could someone tell me simply how to do this?? If someone has an FFL what does he have to do?? Honestly, that was my mentality, no CA sales, but if it is an easy thing to do, maybe I'll change my mind because what you guys are saying DOES make a lot of sense. Esp if it only takes 2 minutes.

Tim

Timothy, I am not an FFL and am inside the PRC, so have not had to do this, but it is my understanding that an out-of-state FFL just goes to the CA DOJ web site (accessible through ca.gov) and gets a code number assigned to your FFL so that an in-state FFL can receive guns from you to transfer to CA residents. If you are NOT an FFL, you don't need to do anything except ship directly to an FFL.

There was a detailed thread on the procedure a couple of months ago. I'll see if I can find it later.

I would rather that this came from the horses mouth so here is the number of the Ca. DOJ that I called if anyone wants to get the true facts. (916) 263-6275. It may take a few minutes but it was worth it to me. The gentleman that I spoke with was very pleasent and even he said that the law did not make much sense. Also, the dealer holds your gun for 10 days not some state agency and you may look at it the day it arrives and decide whether to keep it or send it back.

For those of you outside the PRC, the 10-day wait is not new. CA has had a 10-day waiting period for a loooooong time. Applies to just about all guns, long guns, hand guns, pre-1898 guns, etc. Don't know about muzzleloaders, though. There may be an exception for pre-1892 black powder shotguns, but when I tried to use the exemption the FFL wouldn't go for it. It's not just the time, it's also money. Receiving FFL's around here generally charge $85 to $175 just to process paperwork, so it becomes impractical to buy certain parts guns or project guns.

There are a number of FFL's in other states that will act as a go-between between the buyer and a seller that will not ship into California. The seller ships it to them, then they ship it into California. It's a little bit more hassle, but I have got guns shipped into California that otherwise I would have missed on.

Here is a link for those who want to review the new regulations:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview.php

You guys should be from Il. & see how you are treated. I understand why but it still is a problem. I travel to alot of sporting clay events and than hit the gun shops. As soon as they find out I'm from Il. I hear " Sorry but I won't sell you any gun. It is not worth it." I have bought a few from out of state but not too many. I have to rely on auctions. Frank

You guys should be from Il. & see how you are treated. I understand why but it still is a problem. I travel to alot of sporting clay events and than hit the gun shops. As soon as they find out I'm from Il. I hear " Sorry but I won't sell you any gun. It is not worth it." I have bought a few from out of state but not too many. I have to rely on auctions. Frank

I was a friendly guy in an unfriendly state once!
At a long time ago CADA show outside of Chicago, I had to fight my gun from the Chicagoland police dept., all the while trying to get my proof of being a Missouri resident from my wallet.
They were tugging at a tidy priced gun at that!
No way would I ever do gun business in Ill. again.

According to my conversation with the Ca. DOJ 2 or 3 years back any firearm that is 1898 or before is considered an antique and does not require an FFL for shipping or receiving. I do not believe this has changed.

I was visiting gun shops in Washington state a few years ago, and a couple of gun shops, when they found out I was from CA, would not even let me handle any of the guns on the rack.

The mentality is kin to while at sea, throwing boiling oil on your fellow crew at the starboard side of your ship while they're taking small arms fire from an approaching frigate.

Not only does it not serve the interest of the ship, it is hard on your fellow crew.

There is a place for these sort of men.




--Tinker

CA has some really stupid gun laws. That said, and considering I'm coming to the state after 20-some years in New York (!!!), so far I can get along with them.

The ten-day wait has been in place since I left CA in the 1970s, I think. So you really always need to have a back-up gun or so, since your new one will be sitting at the dealer for a while. Not a big deal for me, since I have lots and often have to "lay away" new guns anyway--poverty equals deferred gratification....

I recently bought a used revolver from a dealer and long-time friend in NYS. He was truly pissed that there was going to be "one more thing" to do to get the deal done. But he's built his business on good customer service to people like me and he went ahead and contacted CADOJ. No big deal he said afterward and the guy he talked to was even civil and interested in the gun biz in NYS.

I recently was told something by a dealer that I just didn't believe. Sent an email to DOJ asking if it was true. Got a phone call about ten days later confirming that the guy simply didn't understand the law (Federal gun law). Very matter of fact and helpful.

The Gummints aren't going away, boys--Feds, States, and locals. We need to work with them and get what we want, even if it takes some making nice. It's OK to be pissed, like my friend. But then you got to get over it and do what you have to do.

I have to admit that our "hobby" has got suspiciously like "work" in the past couple of decades....

This brought back a memory.I don't know if they are still being held but the CADA Shows which were held at Pheasant Run in the Western Chicago Suburbs were some of the finest(quality of material for sale) gun shows I ever attended.
I was fortunate enough to only live about 10 minutes away and made it a point to always attend them.
These was also a huge show in the Northern suburbs in Grays Lake
which I've been told the antis got cancelled. I feel fortunate to now live in Arizona and the 1500 table Crossroads of the West show will be coming uo in a couple of weeks.
Jim

We here in SoCal still have the occasional Crossroads of the West Gunshow at the Orange County Fairgrounds, but if there are 1500 tables, 1400 of them will be black guns and beef jerky.

Agree with Replacement on SoCal versions of "Crossroads of the West" gunshows--not worth attending for guns and too expensive to attend just because you're bored or jonesing for a new beany baby. The gun market down here is supremely overpriced just like most things CA (except for Mexican food, which is priceless anyway....). If you do find a gun that interests you, you have to politely go three tables away to vent the bellylaugh.

The VERY few good deals I've found locally were on calguns.net, and were individual-to-individual sales. Those only work fore me if I can physically go to the seller and see what he actually has, then repair to a mutually acceptable FFL to do the 14 pounds of paperwork. Fortunately, I'm retired and the price of gas has moderated. The fees on these deals that you have to pay at the FFL are state-mandated, so the dealer can't hold you up like in a deal where the gun has to be shipped. For that reason, many of the chain gunstores do this very reluctantly (or screw it up).

Like most places, you need to cultivate a network of knowledgeable, honest "gun people" to get what you want. Just a little harder in LALA.....but did I mention the tamales dulces, carnitas en salsa verde, camarones en coco?

Well you guys would really hate the December Crossroads show here.
In addition to the usual set up of 1500 tables with ALL types of firearms including double guns the SAR sets up at this show in another building. For those unaware these are all Class III dealers with a huge building of,Heaven Forbid, all kind of full auto firearms which are perfectely legal to own here but not in the Peoples Republik of California. Oh and I have bought many older classic guns of all types at these shows as that's where my primary interests lie.
Quote:
"We here in SoCal still have the occasional Crossroads of the West Gunshow at the Orange County Fairgrounds, but if there are 1500 tables, 1400 of them will be black guns":

I find this statement interesting since Kalifornia has effectively outlawed the private sale and ownership of even semi-automatic "assault weapons" lookalikes. So those 1400 tables full of black guns must be the solid plastic castings they use in movies.
Jim

Not quite.

I don't live in CA so don't hold me to the details. It is still quite possible to own a 'black gun' in CA. There are some strange rules and weird parts (Monsterman Grip, Bullet Button mag release)and odd rules but it is possible to build/buy an 'Off List' AR and legally own it in CA.

BTW - I really miss the Crossroads of the West Gunshows. I attended them in Phoenix for many years and then in Sandy, UT for another decade.

I have not yet attended a gunshow in PA, so I don't know yet what I am going to find. Somehow I doubt it will be 1500 tables.

You would be amazed at how many non-firing replicas there are at the CoW shows. There are also look-alikes that skirt the regulations ever so slightly. "Black guns" also refers to the inevitable bunch of short barrelled/plastic-stocked shotguns and polymer-framed pistols, as well as to legitimate modern waterfowl guns (but not many of those in evidence). Best boots I ever owned came from a CoW show, from a dealer closing out old inventory at about a 75% discount. It was the last table I passed as I headed out the door.

Don't forget the beef jerky...

The crossroads show comes to SanFrancisco at the Cow Palace.
There are very few things spoken of here on this site that I have not seen at the crossroads show there -- everything comes to the show.

Granted there is a lot of black plastic at the urban area shows, also consider that there's a lot of wetland bird hunting going on here in the state, also lots of rough timber game hunting as well.
There are many forms of 'Black Rifle' type configuration long guns legal for purchase/transfer/use here, including AR type rifles and carbines.

Still, from what I see and hear, the plastic-fantastic guns and rifles are not unique to the state of California.











--Tinker

Mike A. ,"the very few good deals I've found locally were on calguns.net and were individual to individual sale. Thos only work for me if I can physically got to the seller and see what he actually has, then repair to a mutually acceptable ffl to d o the 14 lbs. of paperwork."

Mike A, and others who live and know in CA, is a plain old private sale between 2 adults illegal? Do you have to go through an ffl? Just curious.

redoftx

Citation
"No, you cannot purchase a Colt Sporter or any of the firearms listed in California's Assault Weapon Guide. Nor can you purchase any firearm that was previously banned by the Federal Assault Weapon Ban, that has become legal as of today in about 46 other states, or import them into California for any reason unless you are the government. And citizens of this fair state are not the government. Additionally, California bans the sale or importation of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. Absolutely nothing changes in California. So jump for joy, at least some people are getting their rights back.

Isn't it wonderful that we have a government that goes out of its way to protect our constitutional rights"

Here above is a summary of the types of weapons banned in Kalifornia.
I would copy it all over but the ban is over 90 pages long.
If there are "Black Guns" which I and most people in this hobby define as semi-automatic assault rifles lookalikes that are still legal in this "State" I'd like to see some examples of them.
Jim

Yes, and yes.

Further on that, all they're doing with a rifle or shotgun sale is running a background check - nothing on the gun at all on the paper.
You could be exchanging two hundred guns on one check and no one shall know the difference, no problem.



Tinker

Isxs-

I can't list them all, and by the book the list might be as long or longer than 90 pages of 'black rifle' ie 'mousegun' ie 'AW' type rifles and carbines that are legal to buy/own/etc here in the state.

The distinction lies in their name and some esoteric features.
For instance, the (imaginary for this purpose) 'ItalianSideBySide' brand 'ChuckSmoker' rifle (which looks just like a Bushmaster DCM rifle but doesn't have a mag catch button - instead it has a hole in the mag well where you can stick a bullet tip to drop the mag...) IS LEGAL.
It looks like the Bushmaster DCM, it shoots/balances/handles/performs the same as a Bushmaster DCM, but it doesn't have a mag release button...

Get it?
There are other similar functional distinctions that get this all to work out for everyone who gives enough to make it happen.




Tinker

I feel your pain. Several years ago I found nice double at a shop in "Bible Belt" state but the hombre in charge would not ship to NYS. Many will likely avoid CA or state now known as "Left Coast".

Tinker et al:
Thanks for the clarification here. I guess there are ways to get around some of the truly stupid laws they have there. Also I'm just grateful I live elsewhere and don't have to do things like that.
I feel I live in an ideal location with the Crossroads Show and William Larkin Moore only minutes away.
Jim

The FFL and your wallet would know the difference. All the FFL's with whom I do business charge a fee for the use of the FFL itself (i.e., the actual license), plus a set fee per gun. There is usually a price break if all the guns are from the same source or from the same state, but if you buy three guns from three different out-of-state sources, you pay three fees, even if on the same background check and all at the same time. The only savings in that case is that you only pay once for the use of the license.

Replacement-

The comment I made had only to do with the rules.
The guy paying the rent on the shop can charge any service fee he wants, but I don't typically have to pay such fees at the places I do my business.



Tinker

See here for some help:

http://www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm