I found a Winchester Model 21that was billed as a skeet gun, even though it had 30 "barrels. The price was reasonable for a 21, I think, but I don't know much about 21s. The 30" barrels and skeet seem a bit odd, and I couldn't find any mention of that config via GOOGLE. Am I looking at someone's parts gun, or ?? Thanks for your help.

Are they saying it's a skeet grade gun or is it really marked "SKEET" on the bottom of the frame? Sounds like it may be a "TRAP" grade. However, it must be remembered that a Model 21 could be special ordered however the customer wanted it.

I'm not much of a Mod 21 fan, but for a 30" 20 g, I'd grab it if the price is right.

A typical 21 skeet gun may have "skeet" stamped on the receiver ahead of the trigger guard. But when you look at the choke stampings just ahead of the flats you'll see WS1 and WS2 on 12s, 16s, and 20s - not skeet. Usually right barrel WS1, left WS2 - though some are reversed. I've got one that's WS1 and the WS2 is factory overstamped/opened to IC.

Chokes on 28s and .410s will be stamped skeet - and not WS1/WS2.

Sam

"I'm not much of a Mod 21 fan, but for a 30" 20 g, I'd grab it if the price is right. "
I find no mention of the gauge of the gun Posted.

As other have said, there was a Skeet Grade gun produced in the Pre-War years with has nothing really to do with a gun for SKEET.
Winchester produced two guns for SKEET that were cataloged as such and marked 'SKEET' on the floorplate. The first version had 26" barrels and could be had with straight or pistol grip from stock. The second later version had 28" barrels. Both these guns were choked SK1/Sk2 with Winchesters propriatary choking and were touted not just for SKEET but for upland hunting in Winchester adverts.
If your gun has 30" barrels, it is not a SKEET from stock but as said Winchester would make anything one wanted. The only way to know if original or how modified is a Cody letter.
Serial #, pictures and a much better description would help in evaluation. -Dick

Pre-WW-II you could get a Model 21 "Trap Grade" that was not a trap gun, but a Skeet Gun was always a skeet gun.

My earliest Winchester catalogue to show the Model 21 is 1933. It shows the "Standard", "Tournament", "Trap" and "Custom Built" Grades and the "Skeet Gun". The "Skeet Gun" was offered in 12-, 16-, and 20-gauges with a straight grip stock, checkered wood butt, beavertail forearm, single-selective trigger, ejectors, a non-automatic safety and was bored WS-1 right and WS-2 left. The catalogue goes on to state that in its first year, 1932, the Model 21 Skket Gun carried the long run record in both 12- and 20-gauges.

By the 1934 catalogue you could get a skeet gun in the "Trap" Grade ($147.10) or "Tournament" Grade ($130.70) and you could now have a straight or a pistol grip. By 1938 the "Tournament" Grade is gone, and it is again just the Skeet Gun, but it can be had in "Standard", "Trap" or "Custom Built" Grades, barrels are still only 26-inch but the extra cost option of a vent rib is now available. For 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1946 the offerings were the same. By 1950 the Skeet Gun now has 28-inch barrels, and the remained so through 1959.

To complicate matters further, and to demonstrate that Winchester would make whatever the customer wanted (what a concept!), I have a 2 barrel 20 ga. M21, which the Cody letter says is a skeet grade gun ( it has the longer forearm) but the two barrel sets are 26"I/C and Mod, and 28" Mod and Full. The "Skeet" stamp is missing from the floorplate. BTW, both sets of barrels are chambered and marked for 3" shells.

I have owned such a gun. A Model 21,20ga. With 30 in. barrels. SKEET stamped on the trigger plate. This gun was choked Mod & Full and chambered for 23/4 and 3 in CHAM.

I traded this gun to Galazan for one of his CSM Model 21s w/30" barrels. The CSM gun IMO is better built and the warranty is a huge plus over any Winchester 21 one might purchase.
By the way, my Win. 21 never hit Tony's web site and how sits in a privite collection.

I have a "tournament skeet" grade, as marked on the floor plate, 20 ga. 2 barrel set. It has a 26" ws1/ws2 barrel and a 30" IM/Full barrel. It was originally a straight stock with a BT forearm. Unfortunately some one had replaced the pad with an old white line pad. I re-stocked the gun to get it shootable for me, but kept the old stock in case I wanted to put it back on. The gun came in a leather flat case with the purchasers name embosssed on it. I believe it also has A&F embossed, but would have to pull it out to be sure. When I bought it 3 or 4 years ago, there was also an almost identical set with it, but I could not work a deal on it. I am pretty sure it did not have a grade stamped on the floor plate. It had 26" ws1/ws2 and 28" IM/Full barrels, both 3" marked. I think I remember the sn's being about 30 apart between the sets. It also had the leather flat case with the owners initials. Not the same 3 initials, but the same last initial. The story I got was that they came from a family from the Va. Tidewater area. I wish I had picked it up as well, but as usual not enough money for everything!!

If I can figure out how to post pics, I will put some up.

Bill

Letbet - Let's see the pix!
http://www.parkergun.org/forums/forum1/5065.html

I suspect that these 30" M/F Skeet guns(if the serial #s match) were originally Skeet Grades with two sets of barrels and the skeet choked barrels went missing somehow.

There are Skeet Grade Model 21s, both prewar and postwar that deviate from standard choking and barrel length. My wife owns a postwar 20 gauge Skeet Grade bored Improved Cylinder and Modified. I also had a post war Skeet Grade 12 gauge bored Cylinder and Improved Cylinder.

You have a good question. I have seen two 20 ga 21s that were marked skeet and had 28" M&F barrels on them. They could have been two barrel sets in which case the choked barrels would have a 2 on the forend lug.

What most people don't know is that skeet was never a grade of gun only a type of gun and there fore there is no reason for these guns.Before 1940 if you wanted somthing better than a standard skeet gun you ordered a tournament grade, trap grade or custom grade and after 1940 these were replaced with the deluxe grade and the trap, duck,skeet and field became types of guns.

So you have a good question.However it doesn't hurt the value of the gun.

AC

Yes there was/is a Skeet Grade 1936-1959. Those stamped SKEET are Skeet Grade(standard skeet if you will) and had higher grade wood. As you say, there were also Custom Built-Skeet 1936-1941 & 1953-1959, Deluxe-Skeet 1942-1950, Custom Deluxe-Skeet 1951-1952, Trap-Skeet 1933-1940 and Tournament-Skeet 1933-1935.

Check out Ned Schwing's "MODEL 21" book, if you don't believe me.

Show me in winchester material where it says skeet grade. I told Ned this when he was writihg the book, He also calls Duck guns Duck grades.

AC

OK, you win. I couldn't find anything about a Skeet Grade in my Model 21 stash. However, those of us who have been buying Model 21 Skeet Guns for some time (for me, 44 years), we know a Skeet Grade from a Field Grade from across the room. Now we know enough to call them Skeet Guns. Even later Trap Guns are not Trap Grades. How about that. However, it is hard to tell the difference since both are stamped TRAP on the floorplate. I have never heard anyone refer to the DUCK as a Duck Grade since it is indistinguishable from a Field Grade except for the chambers.

Remarkable. My 'Cody' letter says "Skeet Grade" right under G2186B.

How can the 'factory records' record a Skeet Grade if Winchester never used the term?

The gun is stamped 'Skeet' on the floorplate, where one would expect to find other 'grades' also stamped.

Very interesting that they never used the term 'skeet grade', guess you learn something new every day.

A bit OT, but don't Schwing in his Mod 42 book and Riffle in his Mod 12 book refer to "Skeet Grade" for those two guns? I would think the marketing guys at Winchester would be somewhat consistent in their use of the term "grade." If one has a Mod 12 stamped "SKEET" on the bottom of the frame and choked WS2, with decent checkered wood, is that a "skeet grade" or is it a "skeet gun?" I think I know that there was some confusion about the Mod 101 skeets, with a designated "Skeet Grade" as well as field grades that were choked skeet/skeet and sometimes confused with the "Skeet Grade" guns (usually by sellers).

Well, I am of the opinion that the stamp on the bottom of the frame was a grade designation. However, I'm not sure all grades were stamped as such.
Bill,
Schwing referred to the DUCK as a Duck Grade, but we have been told he may have been wrong!

Has anyone ever seen a Model 21 with CUSTOM BUILT, CUSTOM BUILT-FIELD, CUSTOM BUILT-TRAP, CUSTOM BUILT-SKEET, CUSTOM BUILT-MAGNUM, OR CUSTOM BUILT-20MAGNUM stamped on the bottom or was the CUSTOM BUILT part stamped on the top rib?

Same question for the CUSTOM DELUXE, C D-FIELD, C D-TRAP, C D-SKEET?

And has anyone seen a DELUXE-FIELD, TRAP-FIELD, and MAGNUM or 20MAGNUM so stamped?

Don, I have a friend who owns a DELUXE FIELD two barrel set. This gun has 30" and 28" barrels and is configured with a stright grip stock. A very nice gun. I have seen one other DELUXE FIELD. They are out there.

I though as much, but I have never seen one stamped "FIELD".
Thanks.

Yup, Deluxes come in several flavors and are stamped that way on the floorplate. I think some are just stamped Deluxe. I'm glad shotgunjones brought up the Cody letter source and replacement mentioned the Models 42 and 12. I'll check that one out. As I said, though, no catalog from 1930 to the end of standard production mentions Skeet Grade Model 21s. I'll keep looking.

I haven't heard mtwoodson say why the gun was "billed" as a skeet gun. Or what the chokes were. ...... I have seen one Deluxe Field and there was one person on here several years ago that had one, but he hasn't been on in some time. Many of the Deluxe Field Grades were stamped as such because the pistol grip was not only checkered but the side panels were checkered, too. That is the only difference I have heard of between the two.

I maintain an extensive collection of Winchester paper and a seperate collection of Model 21 paper of which I believ I have every paper on the Model 21 shotgun.
I conducted an extensive review yesterday and no where is 'SKEET Grade' refered to.



The above is from a Winchester issue 'Your gun for SKEET' dated 1933 and references the SKEET gun and Tournament, Trap and Custom Built Grades. I think it safe to assume that what Schwing refers to as 'SKEET Grade' is what most of us call a 'SKEET' gun and so marked on the floorplate.
In any event, the SKEET Model 21 with Sk1 and Sk2 chokes in any Grade is one of the most useful of all Model 21's.-Dick

I'm so confused. Schwing claims that 1936 was the first year for the Skeet Grade as a grade unto itself, and shows a picture of the catalog.
The final inspection report on my gun specifies the finish as "Skeet"

The picture on page 109 of Schwings book shows what is referred to in the catalog as 'SKEET Gun'. Nowhere in the catalog is 'SKEET Grade' used.
It's possible that Winchester factory individuals called the 'SKEET Gun' a 'SKEET Grade' but there is no paper that I find available to the public that referred to a 'SKEET Grade'.
-Dick

The 1939 price list lists a skeet gun at $116.25 and a standard with single trigger and ejectors at $104.75 add $3.30 for checkered butt and $8.20 for beavertail and it comes to $116.25.

Also checking my material, the 1932 catalog list only skeet guns in Tournament, Trap and Custom Grades and my 1935 price list only lists these guns. My 1938 price list lists a Standard skeet at $111.25 and a Trap Grade Skeet at $144.25.THe Tournament had been droped.

Back to the orignal Question I wonder if the skeet marked guns with choked barrels were put out after the war just to get guns out to the public.

AC

1932 Hunting & Fishing with mention of the Skeet Gun



Same era Winchester Score Sheet

My gun is a 1956 gun. Wonder why the inspection sheet refers to the finish as "Skeet"?

Because the finish and options were different. "Skeet finish" would usually include checkered butt, cap on pistol grip, maybe a bit of figure in the wood, possibly minor extra care in finishing. Dick's research tells the same story as mine did and mentioned in an earlier post. No mention of Skeet Grade in any Model 21 catalog or price list from 1930 to the end of the standard era in 1960.

A closer reading of the 1933 catalog shows "The Model 21 Winchester Skeet gun is furnished in the Grades mentioned above."
Those grade are Tournament, Trap and Custom Built. With the advent of the 'SKEET' gun in 1936, it appears that another Grade was offered marked simply 'SKEET' on the floorplate and so marketed. Guns before 1938 appear to have a comination of Tournament-SKEET, Trap-SKEET. I have never seen a Custom Built-Skeet.
It was over 70 years ago.-Dick

As to Model 101 Skeet Guns. From the time the 20 gauge Skeet guns were first introduced in 1967, they were offered in 26 1/2", 3" and 28", 2 3/4" guns. The 20 gauge Field guns were offered with the same barrel lengths and chambers, but not with Skeet Chokes. However, both Skeet and Field Guns looked the same(blued engraved frames and no special wood for Skeet). The catalogs listed Field, Skeet, and Trap models. They were not called Grades.

The 20 gauge 28" gun was dropped in 1971 and was available only in the three gauge Skeet Set after that time through 1977. The 26 1/2, 3" gun was dropped after 1977. They still all looked the same.

Now, in 1976, the 20 Gauge Pigeon Grade Skeet with 27" barrels was added. So in 1976 and 1977 there were two grades, if you will, the Standard(Field) Skeet Gun with 3", 26 1/2 " barrels and the Pigeon Grade Skeet Gun with 2 3/4", 27" barrels. The Standard Skeet Set was dropped in 1977 and the Pigeon Grade Skeet Set with 2 3/4", 28"was added in 1978.

It stayed like that until 1982 when the Pigeon Grade Skeet was dropped and the Grand European (20 gauge, 2 3/4", 27" barrels) and the Diamond Grade(20 gauge, 2 3/4", 27 1/2" barrels) were introduced. The Grand European Skeet was dropped in 1986 and the Diamond Grade remained until the end of production in 1988.

Enjoyable thread. Thanks to all for the research and scholarship.

I found a Cody letter, postwar, that describes a "Duck Grade" but still no factory documentation about Skeet Grade or Duck Grade. I have work orders that describe trap finish, skeet finish, tournament finish, reg. finish, you name it, but no factory work order with grade referred to in the finish section.