I have been reading here since before the move and love the info.

Ive been talking to a fellow gun nut who wants to buy his first double. He wants a Fox C grade and has been looking around. I have passed on some of what Ive learned here about tight actions and ringing barrels but would like to see him get a good lesson in Doubles 101.

Im looking for the kind of info that doesnt get covered here all of the time because its just common knowledge. Like Why the lever should be left of center or how to tell if a gun is off face. The simple stuff.

Can you share the things you look for in a gun and the things that make you put it back on the rack.

Thanks, Gary

books by michael mcintosh are an excellent introduction to the world of sxs shotguns. see amazon.com for listings of new and used titles.

The top lever is right of center to factor in wear that normally occurs on a double. With that said I have never shot any double enough to get the lever to the left of center. A gun with the top lever left of center has seen excessive use, or more likely been abused with high power loads that it was not designed for. On face means that the barrels are right against the breech (i.e. face of the action). One can tell if a gun is off face usually by visual inspection. See if there is a gap between the barrel and the breech. One can also try to slip paper, or use a feeler gauge to determine how badly a gun is off face. Some gun problems are not visible. I bought a double that looked perfect, but one barrel shot 6" low at 16 yards. There have been numerous posts over the last year about people being stung by double gun dealers, many of them prominent gun dealers. Unless your friend is looking for a fox, it might be better to get a new double that comes with a warranty. Nothing will get a guy out of double collecting faster than a bad experience.

Thanks IM, you just did a much better job than I can when it comes to putting some of the little points to words.

I had told him that the gun being on face is the first place to start.

What Questions should be asked about barrels?

How does it pattern, or do they know......?
Are the chokes factory original or have they been changed/opened ?
Is there any sign that the barrels have been cut or rejoined ?
Are there any dents, dings, gouges or rust including pits ?
Does the serial number on the barrels match the receiver ?

If your friend is a first time buyer, I agree with IM that a new double would be wise...that way he can choose barrel length, choke and gauge based on what he will use the gun for, not to mention the warranty as IM stated.

The Double Shotgun by Don Zutz is a good place to start.

Note that the lever starting right of center & weraing-in to the left is not universal. This seems to be most prominent on American guns but any number of British & Europen guns were not built with this feature. The lever started centered & stayed that way. On many of the cheaper guns the bolting surface were fairly rough machined & initial wearing in came pretty fast. Beyond that I highly suspect more of the wear came from friction in simply opening & closing the gun with un-lubricated surfaces.

Barrel should be inspected for any obvious defects such as dent, dings and rust. Dents can act as a barrel obstruction, so they are to be taken seroiously. I dropped my CZ Ringneck on the concrete this Summer and it only received minor scratches. I am of the onpinion that dings and dents do not constitute normal wear, but abuse. The bore should be shinny and have "rings" when viewed.

Ringing of the barrels is a good indication that they are properly joined. Also tip the barrels up and down and listen for "sand" sliding. this is solder. Some sliding is o.k., but excessive sliding or if you hear chuncks of solder clanging down the joint you proably have a problem barrel.

ejectors (if any) should be checked. Insert snap caps and see if the ejectors work individually and together. Both snap caps should fly out at the same time. If not the ejectors are not timed.
Barrel thickness is also important. a lot of old doubles have seen better days. Barrels should have some "meat" to them and not appear paper thin at the muzzles. In Michael McIntosh's book SHOTGUN TECHNICANA, Chaper 27, it is stated that a 12 gauge with a nominal bore diameter of .729" is out of proof, "unsafe" at .740" there is more to it and it is rather, well...Technical, but use your best judgement and look for barrels that appear unusually thin.

I use a powerful flashlight to check a gun out. bright light lets you see things that might have skipped your attention, or that someone has tried to cover up. A good inspection of a shotgun should take a 1/2 hour at the least.


Hope this helps

I can't argue with McIntosh, but do be careful of generalizations when it comes to older guns. A lot of early 12 gauge Parkers came from the factory with bores at .750 or larger. Barrel wall thickness is more important than bore diameter, but much harder to measure accurately.

Thanks Replacement, you are right. As I said there is more to it than meets the eye and with limited space, (and time) can't go over everything.

Grogel, another thing I look for is the tightness of the gun. Check for loose wood with the gun closed and open. try wiggling the wood with hand and see if any play is evident. With the barrels open, wiggle the barrels in the same way. The gun should be tight and not move around.

I found these to be myths:
1. If them barrels don't ring like London church barrels they will need rejoining. Nope, never heared them bells with any of my guns.
2. If the muzzle ends don't touch barrels could have beem cut. I don't seem to remember ever having gun that didn't have 1mm to 2mm separation. Makers tested guns for POI issues and placed wedgies so that good pattern overlap would result and that aint good for barrels touching.
3. Lever left of center means gun is badly worn, BS. What do we have with true left-handed action? Had one right hander with left of center lever and the culprit was some bad lever spring that needed replacing. The action itself was tighter then you know what.
Good luck, laddie.

Here's a good thread discussing the evaluation of vintage SxSs http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=969&start=0

The best part is probably this from Larry Brown:

Much of this applies to any gun, not just doubles. Check the stock dimensions--LOP, drop, and cast (if any). LOP is the easy one to fix, either by cutting the stock or adding a pad. However, if you have less than about 13 1/4-13 1/2" of wood, unless you're a midget, you'll probably need spacers as well as a pad, or you'll need to add a wooden extension. Moving drop or cast requires bending. Especially with old American stocks, do not assume they can be bent very much. Check carefully for cracks in the stock, especially right behind the receiver. Same for the forend. Look for gaps where wood and metal meet. If you're buying a used gun, is the wood still flush with the metal all around, or is the metal "proud" of the wood--that is, the wood is below the level of the metal. In the latter case, you may not be able to refinish the wood in the future. A little proud wood is good, because it permits refinishing.

Check for looseness. Two tests here: on a double, remove the forend, push the top lever to the right as if you were breaking the gun open, and see if you feel any significant "wiggle". The other test, also with the forend off, is to grasp the barrels out toward the muzzle, while holding the gun vertically, stock parallel to your body, then swing it rapidly back and forth, left and right, almost as if it were a canoe paddle. Again, you should not feel (or hear) any looseness.

Look at the breech face. If the gun is case colored and retains lots of color, no pits around the firing pin holes, that means it has not been shot a whole lot. Same thing if the breech has a shiny finish--look for pits.

Barrels--look at the lumps, the pieces that fit into the receiver. A gun can be tightened (VERY temporarily!) by a few taps with a punch or a ballpeen hammer to the lump. You should be able to spot those. Run, immediately, from such a gun. You may also see previous work done on the lump, either in the form of TIG welding, or you may spot a C-shaped piece fit into the lump that engages the hinge pin. Those are standard and acceptable ways of correcting looseness, and if the gun is tight, I would not be concerned with either of those fixes.

Hold the barrels by the lumps and strike them, all up and down, with something like a wooden pencil. They should give off a bell-like tone. If they clank, or if you hear a rattle or detect a vibration, that means the ribs are coming loose. That's an expensive fix; stay away from such guns.

Check the safety to make sure it works. Then, with snap caps in the chambers, check the trigger pulls. They should be light, crisp, and with very little or no creep. Trigger work is not a big deal on most pumps and autos; it's a much bigger deal on doubles. At the same time, check the ejectors if the gun is so equipped. They should trip together, and they should toss your snap caps the same distance. Ejector work is also fairly pricey. The top lever should be either dead center, or slightly right of center. A top lever left of center indicates wear, and a gun that will require tightening (not a cheap job) fairly soon.

Check the bores for pits, dents, or bulges. Very light pits, almost like staining, aren't a big deal. Beyond that, buyer beware. Small dents are also not a really big deal and don't necessarily even need to be removed. Look down the bores from both the breech and the muzzle to see what a dent looks like on the inside. Some that you can see (or feel) on the outside won't even show, or will barely show, in the bore. Bulges . . . stay away from any gun with a bulged barrel. Check bore diameter and choke with a gauge. "Standard" diameter can vary quite a bit, but with some doubles (especially British ones), you'll find the bore diameter stamped on the barrel flats. If your reading is significantly larger than that marked, proceed with caution. Choke work is not particularly expensive, but if you're looking at a gun with lots of choke and you're thinking about having a lot removed, take a good look at the muzzles to see that they have enough thickness to do the required reaming.

Barrel flats . . . they tell quite a story, especially on foreign guns which are required to pass proof testing in national proofhouses. With many guns, you can tell either exact or approximate age, the level of proof, the original chamber length, and whether the gun has been submitted for reproof (quite common with British guns in particular). Measure the chambers to make sure they haven't been lengthened from what's marked on the barrel flats, or elsewhere on the gun. On older American guns, lengthening 16ga chambers from the old standard 2 9/16" to 2 3/4" isn't all that critical. On British and European guns, because they tend to be light and if originally 2 1/2" chambered were designed for light loads, it can be more of an issue if they have been lengthened.

On used guns, try to get the seller to agree to let you shoot the gun, with return privileges if there's a problem. Most reputable dealers will permit this with used guns.

I composed this list when I first became interested in Doubles. I have added to it a couple of times. There is also an explanation of a few of the questions. Hope it helps. If I buy over the web I usually email it to the seller.

Shotgun Questions

1. Are there cracks or chips in the wood?
2. Is there evidence of repair to the wood?
3. Is the level of the wood lower than that of the metal? (proud metal)
4. Is the checkering sharp?
5. Has the checkering been finished over?
6. Does the guns metal appear refinished?
7. What is the length of pull to the front trigger?
8. Is the forearm loose?
9. What is the % of case color?
10. Is the engraving sharp?
11. What is the % of bluing?
12. Is the lettering on the blued surfaces sharp?
13. Are the screws damaged?
14. Is the lever right of center?
15. Is there movement between the barrel and receiver with the gun closed and the forearm removed?
16. Is there sideways movement between the barrel and receiver with the gun open?
17. Does the gun operate properly?
18. Are the trigger pulls light and crisp?
19. Do numbers match?
20. What is the length of the barrels?
21. What are the chokes?
22. Is there any pitting in the barrels?
23. Are there any dents or bulges?
24. Is there any metal pitting externally?
25. Has the gun been personalized with numbers, initials, etc.?

Concerning the question of how to check the bore; I look down the barrels and look for pits or darkening. A good 100 year old barrel will look just as smooth and shiny as a new gun. If you see ripples or waves they may have been honed and therefore thin. Look from the front as well as the rear, often imperfections do not show up looking from the rear only.

To measure the barrels for thickness requires the services of someone knowledgeable and you will probably have to pay for that. Also look for dents and run your hand down the barrels to feel for bulges. You can feel bulges that you sometimes cannot see.

Ringing the barrels is done by hanging them on your finger by the barrel hook and tapping them.. Most gun barrels will ring will ring when tapped by a pencil or something similar. The theory is that a dead sounding barrel may have a loose rib that deadens the ring. I have no experience with the proof of this theory but it does make sense.

Measuring the chokes is done by using a digital caliper to measure the bore at the muzzle and subtracting the nominal diameter of the bore. This will give you a number that may or may not reflect exactly how tight the gun patterns. It will get you in the ballpark

If the gun is really well refinished you will probably not be able to tell so, unless you are a serious collector, why should you care? If the gun is poorly refinished the sharp corners will be gone, the engraving will be thin in places, pits will show under the bluing, etc. To tell if case colors are original or not requires someone better than me. It has been my experience that if colors look good on a gun I own they look suspicious. If they look good on a seller’s gun they are exceptionally good. If the colors look good and the rest of the gun shows wear they are not original.

I, personally, will pay more for a gun that has been well refinished than I will for one that has no finish, but I am not a purist.

Thank you all, I will pass this on to him, And print a copy for myself. I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.