American friends tell me they have the opportunity to shoot in England via sporting agents but it all tends towards the very expensive days on posh shoots and that they need a a budget of £1000 plus per day to partake.

I'm planning to start a syndicate for next year for vintage gun enthusiasts to come and shoot within 40 minutes of London at a really good shoot with pheasant & partridges being the main quarry but also wildfowl(not raised), snipe, woodcock, pigeon, hare etc expected in the bag.

Topography is woods, fields, elevated game crops and semi-wetlands. Shooting is a mix - two teams of nine Guns. 'Team A' shoot the first drive as driven birds. 'Team B' beat the drive but carry their guns to shoot pigeons, crows, woodcock, and birds going back etc. Next drive, roles are reversed. Six drives per day, 100 game birds bag expected. This is our little syndicate but I wonder if overseas visitors may find it interesting.

Visiting guns would get a vintage gun, a loader/companion to assist them, transport to and from their London hotel, ammo, etc. Food and drink provided.

The cost of the shooting would be about £200 per gun per day, plus a small additional cost for visitors re-transport, ammo etc. This represents about cost price but would be a good opportunity to have enthusiasts over without them having to pay exhorbitant prices.

We need 18 Guns per day and will shoot 6 days per year. Most Guns will be regulars from the UK but I'd love overseas enthusiasts to join us on adaily basis if need be.

Would this be of any interest to people like you?

I'm not saying 'you' personally but you do represent a good section of the enthusiast for having vintage guns and shooting with them. Any thoughts much appreciated. (Joe: please don't bother!)

I would think there would be a fair bit of interest..... it is the type of shooting that would greatly appeal to me personally. Can you set up some of the shoots so they are timed to coincide with some of the gun auctions? That would be nearly irresistible for me.
Steve

Is this post allowed? Commercial post??

Small Bore-Yes, great idea.
gomiata-Sounds more like he's doing us a favor. I don't think Small Bore will be making a killing at those rates.

giomiata - I don't know - maybe someone can tell me. I'll delete it if it offends

It should be in the miss-fire section.

Seeing and meeting would be worth 200 pounds to me, should I have the time to go. I can't imagine better entertainment for the price.

Commercial, misfire? C'mon, he's thinking of doing something affordable and interesting and wondering what we think.

I live in a gunning Shangri-la. If I knew of a way I could share it with sportsmen without ruining it I'd be asking here for advice.

I checked the BPS to USD exchange rates for the past year. Presently is is 1.48 Dollars to a Pound with a high over the past year of slightly over $2 per pound. At 200 pounds per day I think our gracous British host will be lucky if he doesn't loose money on this venture!

While today it might not be "My cup of tea" I thank Small Bore for the opportunity to partake in the fine tradition of English hunting.

Mark

I think it's fine here.

Does your price include all the game? Or is that on top of the fee? How many birds can a person expect to shoot? What is included?

Shooting at a top lodge in places like South Dakota, Texas, or Georgia can easily run $300+ a day, all inclusive. And the number of birds you can kill in a day is a lot lower. For truly wild pheasants in South Dakota, you can pay $300/day for 3 birds.

So if the pound stays weak, and game is included, I don't think your prices are out of line. But what about everything else - getting your guns in, transportation, etc?

I would want to pay one flat fee for everything and not have to mess around with setting this and that up, taking care of this little thing, etc.

Good luck with your venture.

OWD

I also think it is fine to post here (ignore the BBS NAZIs). I would have interest as I would think many others would. I am sure if Dave finds it offensive he will move it or remove it or ask you to do the same.
Jeff G.

Just a thought, if there are members that are familiar with the administration and logistics of organizing an overseas group hunt it would be great if they'd share their experiance and knowledge!

The way it works is this:

You pay your fee for the day. This includes 100 birds to be expected in teh bag by the end of the day.Bear in mind this is a syndicate shoot you are joining, not a full-on commercial venture. We are out for sport, not to count who killed the most.

We have aprotocl that on any given stand you will not shoot more then five birds. Thsi is because we are out for teh day and if two guns shoot 20 birds each on the first two satnds, we can all go home at 11 O'clock.

A gentleman does not gauge his success for the day on what he has killed in numbers. this is driven shooting with a twist but it is not pot hunting.

We expect Guns to select only sporting birds, we do not shoot a pheasant 20 feet off the ground, we want to shoot birds over the trees. 100 excellent quality sporting birds is a fantastic day's sport. 100 low birds blasted to get your personal kill tally up is not what we are about. the shoot is on atop-quality set-up and there are plenty of birds. There is no need to shoot rubbish.

It would be a really good environment to learn how the ettiquette of aproper driven shoot should be. That means you learn your zone when at the peg, you do not shoot quartering birds (whhich will be driven birds to your neighbour)etc. Too many people with teh cash to go on expensive driven shoots do not appreciate the right way to conduct themselves. This is one reason I'm setting up the syndicate - to promote correct values and discipline to the whole team. It makes the day so much better for all concerned.

As I said, prices about reflect cost to us but I would love to have fellow enthusiasts over to experience what we do at prices they can consider and experience real shooting in an established team of like-minded people.

You may shoot ten birds to your own gun during the day, you may shoot two; these are free birds and the weather, your peg and how well you shoot will all play a part in the outcome.

I expect we could sort out a fixed-price package deal in advance to include use of a gun, hotel, pick-up and drop-off, ammo etc and I love the idea of fixing the dates close to London gun auctions - makes great sense.

Firstly, in my opinion the original post merits a place here, and not on “Misfires.” Nor is it commercial, as it is not a direct offer, but is a request for an “expression of interest.” If it looks as if it will fly as a Shoot, then it could be moved to either the “For sale” or “MisFires”

There is no doubt that it is a great deal. The only problem I would foresee is the bag size. On a recent driven shoot in the UK – and on others before that where the Gunds were strangers– there was a tendency to the “Greedy Gun” syndrome. Eighteen Guns, six drives, 100 birds. That’s roughly a bird per Gun per drive……
Will come over myself if I’ve any money left………………….

K
My SDH books have just arrived!!

I do know one thing. I just recently asked Dave if it was ok to post my website link in my signature. I was told it was unfair to paying advertisers and not allowed.

I think its fine here. It is about vintage doubles, shooting. What else is needed to qualify.

I would pay that just to go along. Heck, I would even be Kerryman's gunbearer and loader just to get to see the event. So if I got stuck next to a game hog or two it would still be enjoyable for me. As someone mentioned if it could be timed at the same time as a major gun auction it would add value to the trip.

Best,

Mike

I've shot in the UK several times and that's a very good deal. Reasonably priced driven shooting is to be had over there but you've got to know local people to locate it. An American guy off the street isn't going to find it going through a sporting agent.

Destyr

Yes! Keep us in the loop.

I would love to be part of this. One bird per drive sounds good to me. And a gun auction to go to later, how does it get any better. Please put me down on your list. Thanks, Frank

I agree. You will notice that the "BBS NAZIs" seldom if ever contribute anything constructive, but are pretty much the "usual suspects" with their occasional one-line-zingers critical of other people's posts. The idea that someone in London is trying to get something going at a reasonable price (or an unreasonable price) is the sort of cross-pond information and networking that ought to be encouraged. Many here will recall, and no doubt read with interest, the fine article by "financially challenged" Market-Hunter-Destry in a recent issue of the DGJ.

Destry told of how he hooked up with some British sportsmen on an Internet site, and how he used the Internet to arrange his own shooting expedition to Scotland. He bought airline tickets on-line and researched how to take along his Parker shotguns; he found a source and ordered custom-built golden plover decoys on eBay. He used e-mail to nail-down his expected contribution to a "shooting" and how to pay his share of a the necessary guides, local transportation and lodging; he also pre-arranged for a permit to import some of his shot game for a photo shoot at my place to illustrate his article.

The Internet can be a great facilitator or a "poison pill." Why anybody would question or object to this sort of thing is a sorry testimonial to the BBS NAZI mentality that I saw and experienced on the LCS and Parker websites...and thus moved my "wastin'-away-in-cyberspace" surfin' & postin' interest here.

I for one would like to explore the possibilities of a "good-ol'-boy" low-cost trip to the mother country, devoid of the excessive Lord of the Manor extravagances that seem endemic to the magazine articles and ads. Therefore I would like to know more; why is it that those who dread, and would like to know less about "commercial activity," can't just move on to a more socialisticaly-pure thread that is of interest to them?

Believe it or not, my new book, Parker Guns: Shooting Flying, makes no mention of the Second Amendment, but explains the First Amendment's freedom of being heard and published in the context of the pre-revolution censorship of the press that resulted in there being no guns-and-hunting books published in America until 1783, when the British troops and Loyalists were disembarking. Keep in mind that we need the First Amendment's freedom of speech to even talk about what the Second Amendment means. Thus the BBS NAZIs serve as a constant reminder of how quickly our fellow Americans can turn on us when things don't fit their personal agenda. Investigation continues. EDM

I'd be down like James Brown for a trip like that. Say, would the shooters be required to wear the breeks, the ties and all the other country-gentleman shooting attire? Or can I come and shoot dressed like I just came out of a Pearl Jam concert? Our country shooting attire here is flannel shirts and jeans with holes in them and a baseball cap. Kosher? Not Kosher?

Count me in on keeping us in the loop. I would be willing to do a trip like this.

Mr. Jeff,
I was rereading this thread and I'm sure that you did not wish to offend anyone specifically, as your remark is very general. The poster who first raised "commerciality" is gomiata, a gentleman who runs a hunting preserve Stateside, so in fairness it’s understandable for him to raise that query, particularly as he has - to my belief - never promoted his operation in his posts here. Following some info I obtained for him he gracefully extended a shooting invitation to me. NOW, maybe if I could link that with Mr. Schefelbein's shoot invite...... ;-)



C’mon Mike…, last time I was in Texas they complained that I spoke too fast and had a funny accent! Could we communicate without passing notes on Post-Its? If we meet up, I’ll bring you a tie!
Rs,
K.

I think it would be a hoot! Wife and I could spend a little time touring and I'd detour for a couple days for the shoot. Let's go for it.

I'm with Mr. Wood. Sounds like fun. Also. when Diane and I were in Scotland last, we found a couple of estates that offered a walk up, clean up deal at reasonable rates...Scots Whisky not included...

Is there a chance to see some dog work on these shoots?

I would love to do a little shooting & hang out with the beaters, too. Seeing how it all happens and comes together would be very interesting.

And how "wild" is the game?

Thanks

OWD

Kerryman Texans think the rest of the English speaking world talks too fast. But I am a Texas Aggie and can listen real fast so no problem. And a free tie!

Yeah Joe, and I could bring Ruth Anne and Last Dollar could bring Dianne and we could all stay with Small Bore while we were in England. That would save enough to pay for the pheasant shoot right there! I think staying with him any longer than a month might be imposing though.

Great idea Small Bore - Thanks!

Best,

Mike

I'm interested.

Jack

Sounds encouraging.

There will be plenty of dog work to witness - the terriers and spaniels in teh line when walking, the spaniels and labradors picking up behin=d the gun line and then 'hoovering' the ground and going for runners afterwards.

Birds are released in July and are totally free. the 'keeper makes sure wthere is feed in teh woods and teh vermin are controlled. We will not shoot until November. By then birds are very mature and pretty wiley. By late December they are VERY educated. Drives are organised to produce very challenging shooting - you ask how many birds you will shoot - ask how many shots you will fire and you could be surprised. the wildfowl are all totally wild and not raised. We feed the lake and the birds come in if they like the look of it. We shoot this only occasionally but it produces exciting and unpredicatable shooting.

As for wearing a baseball cap and Anthrax T-shirt - sure - Just remember to bring a stick and a pair of leggings and to call all the guns 'Sir' before they send you off to beat out the thickest hedge!

The encouraging response confirms what I suspected and I'll put some flesh on the bones of this thing.

Having only shot driven once, I'm a mere rookie. However, a very experienced "gun" told me that if you kill a bird for every 3 shots you fire, assuming decent driven birds, that's a good average. Small Bore, would be interested in hearing your take on that.

SB_

What's the story behind that 1866 Purdey on your site? I have a Purdey hammergun from 1866 and it looks a lot different - a lot.

Mine has pinfire-style hammers and looks like this 1866 Purdey gun (except mine has a Jones underlever):

http://gun-vault.com/purdey1stthumb.htm


Here's another Purdey with a Jones underlever and island locks:

http://gun-vault.com/singh.htm

This one is from 1871 and it also looks a lot different from yours.


OWD

We checked that with Purdey - it was built as a centre-fire, granted it is an early one.

that is not that expensive, but with the concorde out of action it's a major pain in the ass to get to that shoot. quite frankly there are so many things to sample and see that when i take time to go there shooting a gun is pretty low on my want to do list. i would much prefer to shoot driven BIG GAME across the la manche.

The feedback has been most interesting and one suggestion has been that instead of 18-guns shooting 100 birds as a walk-and-stand day, the number of Guns be be reduced to nine and the day be entirely driven. This would give a cost per gun of around £320.

Both formats are eminently possible and I will discuss days available with the Shoot Captain tomorrow (when I'm shooting there).

With sufficient notice, I see no reason it could not be made to work around teh auction dates in November and December (though there are no January auctions).

The aim would be to build the syndicate around vintage gun enthusiasts and give the days a real flavour of sportsmanship and tradition to pass on as new members join.

Here in England we can cater for whatever the guns want.
If you look at the DGJ Autumn edition you will see what we get up to.
We often shoot 8 muzzle loaders and 8 breech loaders, two on a peg enabling us to address a flush if necessary. These days are all full driven days with a meal and drink all inclusive for £150 or upto £220 per gun for a hundred birds.Bird price and quality range from £22 to £34 per bird.The emphasis is on Sport and gentlemanly conduct.

I've shot driven pheasants and driven ducks both, I found the pheasnts to be far tougher targets. Ducks I can handle, I'm a duck hunter, when when those pheasants set their wings in those long high glides they're tough to make contact with. I didn't kill a bird on the first two drives, finally got with the program on the third and scratched a couple out, then really got my eye in and killed them steady the rest of the day. It's fun, you boys will enjoy it, and it's well worth what SB is going to charge.


Destry

Am also interested, but would want to bring my own shotgun(s).

Have had a UK Visitors Temporary Shotgun License at one point that, as I recall, you'd have to organize with the local Constabulary. It wasn't a problem to get, but is a matter of paperwork and bureaucracy 'tho not as burdensome as BATF...

Regards

Small Bore,

Your idea sounds pretty interesting. You say 6 days of shooting. How are the six days arranged as far as the calendar? Shoot one day in one week and then another day several weeks later? Shoot several days in a week? That would make a big difference so far as paying to fly across the pond, expenses, etc.

I have shot in Scotland and really loved it, so I am interested.

My better half got me your book, "Vintage Guns" for Christmas and I found it very interesting and a fun read.

Best,

Quailnut

Sounds Great Dig!
Let us know what you come up with.

obsessed-with-doubles and anyone else who fancies visiting a driven shoot and watching the dog work, do a bit of beating and generally join in the fun, just drop me a PM and I can fix it for you at no cost at all. If you elect to beat you'll even go home with a few quid in your pocket.

Location will be mid Wales and you can stay in our cottage for a night free of charge (but you'll be buying us a good dinner in the village pub!)

I can also arrange for you to shoot on a 125 bird day as an individual member of a party of 7-8 Guns on a very pretty high bird shoot for about £500. (I have no commercial interest.)

regards
Eug

Mr. Molloy-

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on that. I would love to join the beaters. I think it would be a lot of fun.

I'm such a lousy shot that joining the shoot would probably be a waste of time.

Please drop me an email at the address below and I'll be in touch.

Thanks again,

OWD
hfn_03570@yahoo.com

I would be interested in a day or two Sir, I am based in Spain but also shoot in a syndicate near Haywards Heath. I get over to London 10 or so times a year. I have a muzzle loader Harkom I would like to use, please keep me informed, best, Mike Bailey

OWD,

E-mail sent

Eug

you can save money and have a better experience by going for grouse about 100 miles north of saskatoon, sas. canada. several guides advertise on the web. ed1

Ed, save money perhaps but the experience? I followed my father grouse and Hun hunting 70 years ago north of Saskatoon where he was a RCAF flying instructor before going overseas the first year of the war. I'll go back again before I die.

But that driven hunting with all those blokes with their accents and guns, their etiquette and pubs and cheddar, smoked mackerel and meat pies, there's more fun and laughs there for us colonials than a year of Saturday Night Live!

Standing around in front of the gamekeepers house when the shooting was over, drinking hot tea and eating cornish pasties was worth the trip in itself. If I didn't have so many other trips I want to make I'g go again myself.

DLH

Let us all wait awhile and see what this new year will bring.
But if you keep your job and your house, and want an experience of a lifetime, get yourself into gear and plan a trip over the water, you will not regret it.
Eugene's offer is tremendous, but that is just typical of the man, a hell of a nice fellow.But you will meet many more.All I ask is that you train for the adventure, learn to drink copious amounts of room temperature beer, to ogle the barmaids, pay for your round, and don't be sick in the Bar and you will be fine.The shooting days are tremendous also.

Improved Modified and quailnut

I have posted a more detailled outline on 'Articles' on http://www.vintageguns.co.uk

I propose a day in Noven=mber to co-incide with Bonham's sale, two in December to co-incide with Holt's/Gavin Gardiner's and one in January (unfortunately no auction but all the London shops will be in January Sale mode and a trip around all the big gunshops, plus Harrods would be worthwhile.

I'm inclined to try with four days this time and go to six next year if it works out well.Discussions with the 'keeper and varous parties are promising, the majority edging towards driven rather than walk-and-stand but it is early days.

Visitor's Shotgun permits are no problem: just done one for Rocketman.

Small Bore

I'd like to volunteer as one of the loader/companions if you're ever short on numbers. I probably couldn't make all the days, due to existing syndicate commitments locally, and the distance, but I'd happily join you all for the day. I could also bring along a couple of vintage guns for visiting guns to use should there be a shortage.

best regards

SB

I'm posting a report on a day at Dig's "stompin'" grounds. The photos should help you form some mental images as to what is on offer here with Dig's invitation.

No, this is not too expensive!!! I had a fantastic day at Dig's digs.