I've seen a lot of 20g side-by-sides called Pigeon Guns. Usually these are doubles without safeties.

Why would anyone shoot pigeons with a 20g? It doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't the 20g load be a severe disadvantage?

Was there a special class for 20g shooters? Was there a different kind of pigeon shoot for 20g guys?

Or were 20g-guns without safeties most likely being used for other kinds of competitive shooting?

I've also wondered if some guys ordered field guns without safeties simply because they didn't want them.

Anyone have any insights into this?

Thanks

OWD

All of the above. I've seen 20s without safeties in field configuration as well as tight bored long barrel types. Pay the big buck and make up your own mind.

Buying one and using it would prove nothing, though.

The questions is: were the tight-bored, long bbl 20gs made/ordered as pigeon guns? Or is it just marketing spin used today to add value to the guns (and because we don't really know why people ordered them)?

It seems unlikely to me that people were using 20gs on flyers - unless there was a special reason. I pointed out some of those reasons in my first post.

Also, there are enough of these guns out there to indicate that a lot of people thought no-safety 20gs were good choices. This was not an eccentric choice by a few old gun cranks, or by someone trying to make a point.

I noticed a 20g DHE with 34" bbls and no safety is coming up at Julia's in March. They're calling it a pigeon gun. That's why I asked.

Thanks

OWD

Enlighten me - is a pigeon so hard to kill that a 20 is out of the question?

most old stuff out there will be found in 12-bore with 2&3/4" to 3&1/4" chamber length. i would think next to none would sacrifice pattern density for smaller hole.
my 20ga winchester plus 3/4oz 1100fps "watered down" target load works well on barn pigeons up to about 30yards or so.

Actually, they're pretty tough birds. And pigeon shooting is a game that costs a lot to play and there's usually money running on your shot. It was all about gambling and winning.

So why handicap yourself with a small gauge? It doesn't make sense to me.

But maybe there are reasons why it made sense to other guys.

Or perhaps it's unlikely that these safety-less 20gs were made as pigeon guns.

That's what I am wondering.

OWD

rich or well connected pigeon shooters gun for special breed of bird. these are not same birdies that fly around sods silo or poop on city dwellers hats.

If somebody was using a 20 gauge on flyers it means they had enough money not to care if they won the purse or not. No competitive pigeon shooter would ever shoot a 20 gauge unless it was some sort of a 20 gauge only match. I believe the Philadelphia Gun Club has done some 28 gauge only pigeon shoots.

I've heard it said that some of the no safety 20 gauge guns in field configurations were made for bird shooting down south where they rode horses. You never loaded your gun until the dogs pointed and you'd gotten off your horse so why have a safety. I'm not saying that's what all of them are for but that makes sense on a few anyway.

The 34 inch 20 gauge on Julia's sure sounds like a real pigeon gun. Maybe some rich husband ordered it for their wife for the sake of fashion.....


Destry

I might be mistaken but I always thought that puigeon guns were supposed to be heavier, larger gauged guns. Am I wrong? Like the Winchester Model 12 pigeon grade/ gun.

The wife of a late friend, owns a 20 gauge DHE with no safety.
The story is, her Great Grandfather bought it to be used by one of the women in the family.
He was of the belief that no safety was truly safe and that it would be best for his daughter (or wife, I'm not sure which) to rely upon safe gun handling alone rather than to feel reliant upon a mechanical device. Why he thought that a woman was any less capable of safe gun handling with a gun that had a safety, no one will ever know but in this case, that's how the story went.

Some of these chaps legs weren't very field worthy, so a lighter bore gun would make the get away from the pigeon racers so much the better.

I can't imagine why a man would feel a woman is more prone to accidents. But maybe he was the same man who had sat behind a woman driving her car while applying makeup. Or maybe he was the same man who sat behind a woman in an ATM machine line and spent 15 minutes watching her try to get $20. Or maybe he spent 15 minutes behind her watching her try to put 75 cents in a toll booth. You never can tell.

Pigeon shooters, like field/game shooters, come in all sizes. The concept of larger, heavier, more powerful guns must be relative to the shooter's size. A person of slight build is not going to muscle a 7 3/4# gun as well as a 6 1/2# gun. For the person used to a 5 1/2# game gun, a 6 1/2# gun is bigger, heavier, and can be more powerful. So, the decision is to accept a lighter charge from a smaller gauge to get a gun with lower weight and less swing effort.

Logical, but I don't know if it is the total explaination.

i found women hunters to be great source of equipment advice. they seem to use much more pragmatic approach then most men. i suppose that's because they think with their "gray matter" and not the balls which they do not have.

I agree with the explanation offered by Rocketman above. I have such a gun that would seem to confirm that explanation. It is a very fine Merkel 303 clone made by Ugartechea, and is said to be one of only six such guns made by them in 20 gauge, according to William Larkin Moore, from whom I got the gun. I also have it's twin in 12 gauge, of which they are said by Dan Moore to have made some 600. The 20 gauge gun was said to have been the gun of a Spanish movie star who was addicted to pigeon shooting, and was a person of smallish stature who simply did not enjoy shooting the 12 gauge guns. I had the stock lengthened with a 1 1/8" thick pad, and it now fits me nicely. It is a wonderful gun. There may indeed be other reasons for shooting pigeons with a 20, but in this case, the explanation offered fits the circumstance.

Pigeon shooting today usually involves one day devoted to shooting 28 gauge only. Perazzi makes up a 12/28 gauge combo just for this reason.

what happened to legendary 12ga 2&3/4" 1&1/4oz load of nickel plated italian shot starting at about 1200-1250fps?

They are tough birds, and particularly on box birds, it not just killing them; it's dropping them before they get outside the circle (35 to 40) yards in diameter, and you are probably at least 32 yards from the boxes before you call for the pigeon is released.

I have participated in pigeon shoots where the Calcutta purse was in excess of $200K. If you are shooting for the money (and not everybody does) there's no reason to handicap yourself with your equipment. Having said that 1 1/4 oz loads are the max allowed at pigeon shoots, and you cam probably get that in a 3" 20 ga load.

As others have pointed out certain shoots may have a special 28 ga event, but I have never seen a pigeon shoot with a 20 ga event. However I have no idea what they may have done 50 years ago. In the 28 ga events I have shot a Fiocchi pheasant load with 7/8 oz of nickel plated shot, and I swear I killed birds as hard if not harder with those shells

Hack

Here's a nice one from the October 2006 Julia auction.
View 1752 $10,350.00 *KERSTEN ELECTRO DELUXE LIVE BIRD OVER/UNDER SHOTGUN. Cal. 20 ga. SN 5201. Beautiful German made shotgun, actually made by Fritz Kiess & Co., Suhl with a triple scalloped boxlock receiver with cocked indicators and Merkel style flat reinforcements. It is made without safety on top tang which undoubtedly makes it a live bird gun. It has 29-13/16” superposed bbls choked MOD/CYL with solid side ribs & a wide matted flat raised rib with sgl bead & “KERSTEN ELECTRO” in gold. It has dbl bite with dbl crossbolt bbl extensions & ejectors. Mounted with very highly figured streaky French walnut with narrow checkered beavertail forearm & pistol grip stock with raised, checkered, fleur-de-lis side panels with fluted horn grip cap, 14-1/4” over a leather faced pad. It has sgl selective trigger. Receiver & appended metal are beautifully engraved with deep relief gold setter in foreground & pointer in background in a very detailed field scene on left side with two gold flying partridge & another partridge at front edge of receiver. Right side has a raised gold setter with a German shorthair in background in a very detailed scene & two flying pheasant on front end, one in raised gold. Balance of receiver has full coverage oak leaf & acorn patterns. Trigger bow has a raised gold flying duck in an oval marsh scene. There are light patterns at muzzles & rib appears to be hand matted. All of engraving is executed in great detail. Drop at heel: 2-1/4”, drop at comb: 1-3/4”. Bore restrictions: top - .033, bottom - .018. Wall thickness: top - .028, bottom - .036. Bore diameter: top - .698, bottom - .698. Weight: 7 lbs. 2.88 oz. CONDITION: Very fine. Bbls retain 97-98% strong orig blue & receiver about all of its orig coin finish. Trigger guard retains about all of its orig blue. Wood is sound with minor nicks & scratches with some finger ring marks on right side of wrist and retains most of a fine hand rubbed orig oil finish. Checkering shows light to moderate wear. Mechanics are crisp, bright shiny bores. 4-60729 JR306 (9,000-12,000)

Obviously Lowell and several others that have replied have never shot live pigeons so have no base of experience. Hack has it right, nobody shoots a 20 gauge when serious money is on the line unless they don't care if they lose.

Just because you're a small bore fan and think that little guns will do the same job of big guns doesn't mean it works in the pigeon ring. If it's a 28 gauge match that's fine, but nobody shoots a 20 against 12 bores.

Wish they still made the old Winchester AA Super Pigeon shells, those were death on anything that flew.

Destry

Historically in this part of the world, pigeon shooting was for the rich and famous, and I bet a few would do it with 20 gauges just because they could.
Not all pigeon shooting was competitive. The pigeon shooting club was a place for a business lunch or meet some friends by the end of the day, and have a few rounds at pigeons while at it. This kind of informal shooting, plus the wife or daughter being able to shoot a few, may explain some 20's pigeon guns. I saw a Belgium one for sale some time ago

HM

I'm in Hack's and Destry's debt for explaining a pigeon shoot in America. I knew they came out of a box (and maybe thrown by a man in Spain) but not that they had to fall within 35-40 yards. That changes the water on the beans right there. I wouldn't think of using a 20. My curiosity will be accommodated if I knew what happened to the score if a crippled bird flaps past the line.

KB_

I believe if a bird falls out of the ring, it's counted a miss, even if it's stone cold dead.

I've never shot flyers. If anyone would like to invite me to a shoot, please let me know.


HOS-

That listing is interesting.

Does anyone know if this is a model advertised by Fritz Kiess & Co: KERSTEN ELECTRO DELUXE LIVE BIRD SHOTGUN?

Or is this a name Julia's made up?

It sounds like an odd gun. It's a heavy 20g - 7lbs - with a standard length LOP 14.25" and bbls almost at 30". Pretty hefty. I doubt it was made for a small person.

I don't buy their claim: "It is made without safety on top tang which undoubtedly makes it a live bird gun."

Those chokes are pretty open, too.

I don't know what to make of it.


Thanks

OWD

OWD: Here's a link with pictures (hopefully). http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/ke...1-c-zzwo9r3js0. How did you find anything about this model or manufacturer? I googled both with no success?

try this http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/ke...-1-c-zzwo9r3js0

Yeah, if they fall out of the ring then they don't count. If you knock then down but they're crippled, when the bird boy goes out to pick them up, they flutter out of the ring they're scored a lost bird as well. They've got to be knocked down in the ring, and then picked up by the bird boys to count.

I've shot down in Indiana at a ring that didn't have bird boys. If you knocked the bird down in the ring then it counted. That's rare from my experience, only place I ever shot it was like that.

It's a tough sport, very tough. I just shot a match against John Davis in January and lost by one bird. I had a 17 bird straight run in the course of the 27 bird match and still managed to lose 22 to 23.


Destry

who in their right mind would want 20ga mod/cyl as live bird gun?
no safety makes it ole' live bird gun,.....as they say faith moves mounds of inventory.
low estimate of 9k. someone needs to put brass pipe away.

if you're interested in this ole' sport i suggest field cover and trap shooting by bogardus. i picked up copy 99 of 1500 by wolfe library classics limited edition for 15usd.

Jagermeister
Member



who in their right mind would want 20ga mod/cyl as live bird gun? No doubt chokes were upened up in the 70 or so years since it was built.
no safety makes it ole' live bird gun,.....as they say faith moves mounds of inventory.
low estimate of 9k. someone needs to put brass pipe away. Gun brought a little more than $10 K in 2006 Julia auction.

thanks. it's nice to know fritzie style metal graveur can bring good price.
that piece in 5&3/4lb range plus safety would make a luvly game gun.

For those interested this is a pigeon ring (box birds). Each trap contains two spring loaded compartments. This particular location used nine traps per ring. I have seen seven, and I have seen five used before. When it's your turn you will shoot a round of five birds. You will call pull and the bird will be released randomly from one of the available traps.

At this particular location the fence is abour 18" high, and this is typical at most places I have shot. As Destry pointed out, it's very easy for a crippled bird to get over the fence. He's only dead if he is retrieved by the bird boy from inside the ring. Doesn't matter how dead he is outside the ring. I actually saw a bird boy accidently kick a bird out of the ring while trying to catch him. Fortunately the shooter wasn't close to being "in the money", but he was still pretty ticked off.


The shooter is standing on the yardage line, probably at 33 yards from the center trap. Most matches are 25 or 30 bird races, but I guess they can be anything the host wants them to be. If you run any of your rounds of five birds (except the last round), you back up a yard for the next round you shoot, and so on.

If the bird comes out of the far left or far right traps, heading for the closest fence; you've got some quick shooting on your hands.

Hack

If you look where the shooter is shooting you may be able to see that he has just shot the tail feathers out of this pigeon. I don't remember what happened on the second shot.

Hack

All rings are a little different it seems like. That one has the opening in front of where the shooter stands closed off. Every one I ever shot in had that open oddly enough.

It's amazing to see the hawks start circling when the first few shots go off. The local raptors are always keyed in to the pigeon rings. I saw one swoop right into the ring and pick up a cripple off the ground once several years ago.

And at Philly this past January I had some picked geese in a box in the back of my truck. It was below freezing so I didn't need a cooler. A hawk landed in the bed and actually ate about 80% of one, even pulling it completely out of the plastic bag it was in. I didn't see the bird do it but the evidence was plain.

DLH

I wouldn't bet against an open barrel and a mod barrel for columbari birds. A really quick shooter can have relatively short shots, as opposed to box birds, and may well wish for bigger patterns.

A 7# gun is heavy for a 20 bore, yes. But it is still 10% lighter than a 7 3/4# 12 bore. A person of small stature and/or lower physical strength might well find that to be the difference in being competitive. As has been pointed out to me several times, a 20 bore gun can have gripping areas more suitable for smaller hands, too. To assume that nobody would use a gun that was not a "real man's gun" is to forget that this is not the NFL and not all shooters are of heroic proportions.

Barrel length's tend to run more in the 28 to 30 range, as opposed to the 32's & 34's in sporting clays. At one time Krieghoff made a "pigeon" version of the K-80 and the barrels were no more than 28", and I believe they might have been fractionally less.

Hack

By the way, the description from the Julia catalog (above in this string) is contradictory. In the first sentence it says barrels are cylinder and modified, but later it says " Bore restrictions: top - .033, bottom - .018" which is more like modified and full.

There was a well known pigeon shooter from Illinois (the name escapes me) who shot a 26 inch gun at them. Long barrels are the norm though, you seldon see anything under 30 inch.

Rocket,
I never said anything about anything being "a real man's gun". I've just been to quite a few pigeon shoots and you don't see little guns in use. Your opinion that they'd do the job and the reality of pigeon shooting are pretty far apart. Some of your boys are taking this for anti-smallbore sentiment but it's really not. It's just the facts of the game as least as I've seen it played.

Take notice of what Hack has to say, he's obviously a real pigeon shooter and knows what he's talking about. I'm more somebody who occasionally shoots at pigeons but I've been there and done it at least.

Destry

P.S. When you go to the Labor Day Tournament in PA and you don't see anything but 12 bores that says a lot. Folks come in from all over the world for that one.

If you think it's a tough sport, just imagine what the pigeons think about it!

Which kind of brings us back to the original question: there are a number of older 20 gauge guns of pigeon shooting shooting proportions with no safety, so it seems to me that SOMEBODY must have shot pigeons with 20 gauge guns. Either that, or they foresaw the advent of sporting clays 60 or so years in advance. These make pretty decent clays guns. BTW, I shot pigeons in Mexico many years ago and thought it was spectacular, but pricey, fun. What's the going rate (approximately) these days?

Any chance they were duck guns, made for sitting in a blind?

Maybe some guys though safeties were for walking in the field.

That 34" DHE 20g at Julia's weighs 8lbs and has 3" chambers.

OWD

While this may not explain all of the 20 ga.guns that appear to have been made for pigeon shooting,I will attach a portion of
Page 74 of "The Heyday of the Shotgun" by David baker.It comments on the practice in England of also trapping and using sparrows and starlings as live trap targets.I have also read references to
"Lancashire Sparrow Guns" which appear to have been long barreled,heavily choked 20 bores of around 7 lbs.I have seen a few and currently own one by Thomas Horsley.A 20 bore bar-in wood hammergun with 30" heavily choked barrels and weighing about 7 lbs.It was built for the Marquis of Abergavenny,who apparently was an enthusiastic live pigeon shot. It appears that 20's were a requirement for this version of the sport and it was popular in the North of England where some serious wagering took place behind the local watering hole. Maybe some of our Anglo friends can comment
[img][/img]

OWD, There were/are several high end duck clubs in California that require/required the use of 20 ga. guns by their members.Our Parker friends are well aware of the heavy,long barreled guns that were used in that area in the early 1900's.Some with 3" chambers. I would assume that the decision of whether or not to have a safety was that of the buyer.

A friend recently sold a Parker #3 frame 12 gauge with no safety. I'd say that was definitely a fowling piece and not a pigeon gun.

I'm not saying live pigeons were never shot with 20 gauge guns. I'm sure it happened and happened often back in the day. Ladies, young shooters, and men that liked a 20 bore probably did it. I'm saying that they weren't used in serious competition amongst men who shot pigeons as a near religion back in the day or now either one.

I've read of some sparrow shooting matches here in the US as well. The ring owner down in Indiana used to do a starling match every year though I never did get to shoot in it. He'd cannon net them on a big horse farm where they gathered in huge flocks to feed on waste grain.


Destry

I bought an LC Smith,12 bore, 30 inch, Ideal Grade, 3 inch chambers, in the bay area years ago. It had no safety. I always assumed it was a waterfowler.

I think there may be some merit to the waterfowling idea.

Didn't Nash Buckingham use a safety-less Fox on ducks?

Maybe the safety-less waterfowler was popular with guys.


OWD

In the Olympics of 1900 livepigeon shooting was actually one of the events. Some sources say it was an unofficial event, but nontheless it was held at the Olympics.

http://www.topendsports.com/events/discontinued/pigeonshooting.htm

Hack

I enjoy trying to figure out stuff as much as anyone, but this is an issue for which there is no real answer. In this example, Parker built over 240,000 guns - so statistically it's not unusual to find that some were ordered without a safety and with long barrels. It's the same reason you'll see 8 billion red Camaro's and one in pink. Every so often someone walks in an orders something screwy.

I'm sure even back then there were 'catalog surfers' - guys who had a catalog and ordered strange combinations just because they could.

Just for grins find a ZZ-bird ring somewhere. It's plastic pigeons without PETA. For those who have tried both, ZZ's are MORE difficult and the rules are the same. No one that I know has ever even contemplated shooting ZZ's with a 20.

My bet is that they are fowlers. Fox even made some HE's configured like that.

GregSY-

Of course, our discussion "proves" nothing

It does broaden our understanding of how these guns were used 70, 80, or 100+ years ago.

It challenges some assumptions, too. From now on, you'll think twice about any safety-less 20 gauges you see labeled pigeon guns.

All of this is a big part of what I enjoy about this board.

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

Now somebody invite me to a pigeon shoot.

I'm always willing to drive to the Philadelphia area to see it done right...hint...hint....

OWD

BTW: Rocketman, not to be flip, but winning is a lot more fun than losing - even if you're burdened by excess cash flow.

It's takes excess cash flow to play the game. Just the basic match fees are about $500/day, if you play all of the options it's closer to $1000/day, not counting what you might wish to wager in the Calcutta's. I've never seen anybody play that didn't want to win regardless of their financial status.

Having said that most places will let you come as a guest for $35.00 or so. There is free food all day (at least where I've been) and free drinks in the evening. The last one I went to my lunch was grilled grouper steaks and fried soft shell crabs. You can also buy practice tickets - last years price was $35.00 for five birds. There will be a lot of inexpensive games to play, "miss & out", ten bird races, etc.

You also normally get to see some fabulous guns. I have seen a husband & wife with a matching pair of Fabbri's, Purdey's and a host of others.

This may not be universal, but at the matches I've seen Perazzi's were the dominant weapon of choice, with Belgian Brownings probably being the second choice, if not close to it.

Hack

This may not be universal, but at the matches I've seen Perazzi's were the dominant weapon of choice, with Belgian Brownings probably being the second choice, if not close to it.


That seems to have been the case when I was around a few columbaire shoots about 25 years ago.

Clearly not the atmosphere of the formal box pigeons that Hack just described, but I had a chance back in the 90's to shoot pigeons from what was termed a pigeon 'cannon'. Have any of you others heard of this, or shot from one?

This was being promoted here in western Montana by a fellow that owned the 'cannon'....in reality, the mother of all manual clay traps that looked much like one of the early Lincoln brand traps we would see on the SC courses - only much bigger. To the throwing arm was attached a 2-1/2 ft. length of PVC pipe with roughly a 3+" inside diameter. The live pigeon was dusted with talc and inserted in the cocked tube. This trap was well bunkered in just eight yards in front of the shooter, so the trap operator was out of harm's way. The trapper also had the ability to slightly alter the lateral angle of the bird's initial departure. The fenced field was a semi-circle at 40 yds. out from the trap bunker.

Upon the call of 'pull', the pigeon actually was ejected at such force that the bird's wings couldn't open until at least 15 yards from the trap, travelling like a bullet, and moving sooo fast that even the very quickest shooters could not kill them in that distance. In just about every case the bird would deploy its wings before the shot could be taken, and immediately break off on some crazy series of angles......maybe like the hand-thrown Columbaire shooting for all I know.

Being eight yards away from the launch point doesn't sound like much, but there were a number of experienced pigeon shooters asking if it couldn't be shortened up to six yards. It wasn't done. All-in-all, it made for some very tough shooting as the scores reflected, and I've never seen or heard of it again, once this fellow with the trap gave it up.

As for the small-bore guns, I came into possession last year of a DHE Parker 16 gauge, No. 1 frame, made in 1929 for the wife of an avid southern CA duck hunter; built with 32" tubes choked tight and tighter with 3" chambers. Sometime later, a set of 32" Parker 20 ga. barrels were added and numbered to the gun, those also being 32" full and full. This gun did originally come with the tang safety, Silvers pad, and a finished weight of 7-1/4 lbs. .......which one might expect for a 'fowler' being used by a woman. Like someone here pointed out, I could see this gun being configured just as easily with no top safety - relying instead on just good gun handling from the blind.

FWIW, the 20 ga. tubes both throw a very narrow 5" spread at a measured 30 ft. and well within the 30" circle at 40 yards, barring a 'flyer' or two. The 16 ga. set almost as snug. In short, not your ideal grouse gun unless you are a much better shot than I.

All Best,

Rob

About 20 years ago in Mexico (Cabo San Lucas), I shot pigeons where they used these devices to launch pigeons. I don't remember the distance from the shooter, but I do remember that it was very challenging, especially if there was any kind of wind blowing.

I have shot pigeons using that device, and it was pretty wild. It really got wild when they tried quail instead of pigeons.

My impression was that the "catapult" was to simulate Columbaire, but that might just be me.

Hack

I think the mark has possibly been missed on terminology def & intended use in this thread.

It is my belief that these guns were much more what today I would call a 'dove shooter', i.e., a tightly bored 20 with some weight [6.5~7.5#] and that the term as it is now being grasped is rather misleading and therin lies the confusion. Older classic 20's used here in the states were likely used to shoot passenger pigeons and so in that context they certainly could have been ref'd as pigeon guns. Today the same kind of gun may be used effectively in S. America where there is opportunity for considerable shooting and where such a gun is a very good to ideal choice. The addition of a safety, particularly an automatic one, simply would serve to slow down the rate of fire. Pass shooting was the norm from what I have read on the subject. If memory serves, somewhere I read that the last known living passenger pigeon passed in Cincinatti, OH in 1920. It lived at the zoo.

In England the same types of guns may have been preferred for wood pigeons by some for pass shooting or even decoyed birds, but I will defer to smallbore & others here who have actual experience about those guns and hunting the warry wood pigeon.

I do not think it likely that any of these guns was used in the competitive race sense, be it boxed birds or hand thrown, nor would they have been ordered for that purpose. Oh, perhaps some damsel [or gentlman with shoulder/recoil problems] has used a 20 by choice, but all of the many competitive flyer shooters I have seen have used 12's. The use of a 20 in flyer competition would have to qualify as an anomoly, and certainly not by anyone actually contesting a race.

Collumnbare [hand thrown], chokes are often quite open in the first bbl.

Just some thots & observations. Have enjoyed reading the thread. Good sport to all of you this season, be it clays, collecting, or game.

Kind regards, tw

Somehow, I posted twice so I am removing the duplicate. My apology.

Kind regards, tw

ps: terminology; 'catapult' same thing as 'air cannon', not the same as collumnbare. Usually no boundry line and races are miss & out.

You're absolutely wrong about most of these hammerless guns without safetys being used on Passenger Pigeons. Those birds were essentially gone by 1885, most them them would have been shot with hammer guns.

Last known wild bird was shot in 1900, the last known bird died in the Cincinnati Zoo in 1914.

I still think it was wrong to shoot that last pigeon, seein's how it was in cage and all.

When I have shot in Italy most of the guns are 26" with some of the hardest nickle shot I have ever seen. The rings were a little smaller. Seems the Perazzi is boss in my area with K guns and Browning splitting the difference. You get a few Parkers and 21's with the one lone ranger bringing the Beretta semi gas pipe.

I have never seen a 20ga race 12ga and 28 seems the norm today but once in Ohio they had a 410 race. Me I enjoy a moedl 21 trap choked F/F VR or a Broadway that is choked tight and tighter.

I have shot at a shoot in Ohio where the subgauge race can be shot with a 410, 28, 20 or 16. You don't slide on straight rings and each gauge shoots from a different yardage. I believe 410 was 28 yds, 28 was 29 yds, 20 was 30 yds and 16 was 31 yds.

ledbet

They are exactly the same pigeons that infest city parks and grain elevators. In fact, that's where most of them come from. At least that's what I've been told by the hosts of the shoots I've been to. They are trapped in areas where they are a nuisance and a health hazard, transported to the shoot site a few days before the shoot, and then given one more chance at freedom. The other option for these birds is to be poisoned or trapped and then gassed. The only thing done to these pigeons before a shoot is that they are fed certain things to boost their energy level. Gatorade, etc.

I would not consider a 20 ga. for competitive pigeon shooting, having always used a 12 with 3 3/4-1 1/4 loads. When that bird comes out of the end trap driving straight for the fence with a tail wind behind him the best 12 ga. shooters in the game will usually lose him. He may be dead in the air with two loads in him but he will fall over the fence. When Cooley, Scotten and Mein lose those kind, I certainly don't have a chance on them.

I note that many 12 ga. pigeon guns, even Brit. guns are chambered for 3 inch shells. Any advantage there?

No advantage for 3" chambers. The max load allowed is 1 1/4 oz. shot, (and largest shot size allowed is 7 1/2).

IMO patterns are extremely important in this game. Pigeons are much more difficult to down than one would expect. They are very tough and require a well centered hit to down in the ring. It is common to see a bird hit twice, with what appear to be good hits, especially straightaways, and just get faster.

The frequently winning shots are very, very good. That said, there is a lot of luck in the "draw". That is, sometimes the best shots will get birds that are next to unkillable, and an average guy may get some easy birds and win some money. One easy bird can make all the difference.

Greg,

The last bird known to be living was named Martha and she died of natural causes.

The last known wild bird was shot, in Ohio I believe, by a farm boy.

Both birds were mounted and still exist. Martha is at the Smithsonian, but not on display last time I checked. The Ohio bird is somewhere in the midwest, I don't recall where.


Destry