Looking for input. I'm going to open the chokes on a W&S 12ga SxS 26", 6# 2oz. Right now its at Imp. Mod and Very full. Thinking along the lines of skeet 1 and skeet 2 or maybe Cyl. and Imp. Cyl. This will be used exclusively for chasing our local grouse and woodcock population over my Springers. I'm sure it will see the skeet range from time to time also. I'm a firm believer in that modern components make our chokes on the average shoot a little tighter. I shoot a home load of 7 1/2 shot at 1100 fps and it's been good to me when I do my part. Your thoughts and knowledge appreciated. Thanks Bob

Bob,have you tried using spreader loads like polywads,or the BP X inserts? It's always a shame to take metal out of an old gun.

Bob, .005 and .015/.020 would give you a great selection and cover a lot of situations. I have no hesitation to open chokes, especially on non-collector guns such as your W&S. Good luck!

Bob,
I bought a W&S a previous owner had opened up to just over CYL/CLY--.004 on both barrels. I use felt wad loads for grouse/ptarmigan, plastic shot cup loads for prairie grouse/preserve pheasants with excellent results. 7/8 or 1 oz. of #7's at 1150 does the job for me. Justin has a point about removing metal.....there is no turning back, but I tend to agree with Joe. I buy my guns to shoot, not just stick in the safe.

Steve

Ditto what Joe suggested. I have my Parker @ .007" and .013". I'm very happy with that for Sporting, skeet and the limited bird hunting I do.

Tight chokes and spreader loads give you some useful versitility, provided you don't mind carrying the extra loads. I'd suggest you experiment with the spreaders before you cut. You can always cut or cut more. Sure is hard to put back, though.

I would first try spreaders. They will likely surprise you and open things plenty for grouse/wc.

If you plan alot of shooting the cost of factory spreaders may be a concern. You can purchase spreader discs/inserts and load your own. Its really pretty simple.

If you open the chokes I pretty much agree with the others. I would go .005 and .015 for a dedicated 12 ga grouse/wc gun.

Sam

Thanks to all who posted! I agree that you can't put it back. Will advance with caution. Thanks Bob. Always like to have people with like thoughts on your side!

I would go cylinder and 7 thousandths.

Best,

Mike

It's Shameless.

I come from a different perspective regarding chokes. I grew up in an avid wing shooting mileu in the 1950's, when you could buy a new Model 12 at the Hardware Store and no "Stevie Nix" paperwork, and we could shoot rats with our .22's at the town dump Saturday afternoons, and barn pigeons with our 20 gauge pumps whenever we liked. All my Dad's and GrandDad's friends and shooting partners either shot Model 12's or side-by-doubles, 12 gauges mainly, and at least Mod. if not Full choked. Poly-Choke and those loud Cutts Comps. were called G*& D#$@ Pickles- and my mentors taught me- shoot the choke in your gun, Winchester-Parker-Fox-Ithaca know more about chokes that we do.

I have 6 older Model 12's (pre-WW11 or at least pre-Korean War mfg.) none with barrels any shorter than 28" and chokes any more open than Mod. Many old timers when you could buy a new field grade Model 12 in 1932 for $31.95 or so- bought a 30" Full over a 28" Mod. or Full- Depression times made them feel they got more "metal for their money" with a 30" barrel- 4 of the M12's are 12 ga. (two are 3" Heavy Duck versions)and my Dad's 1937 12 30" Full is my money gun- the one I always take when I want high scores- I also have a 20 ga. mfg. 1940 Mod. and a 28 ga mfg. 1939 with a solid rib WS-2 choke (aprox. mod.)

I do NOT hunt grouse or woodcock or quail or doves, and use a ranging Lab for pheasants and waterfowling, and my favorite of all wing shooting is pass shooting, and I love high incomers. So for me to have, let's say, Brileys, rechoke any of these "Perfect Repeaters" would be futile.

I did buy a pre-1913 mfg. LC Smith 12 Grade 2- 30" Crown steel barrels choked Full and Full, and I was "shredding" pheasants with it last Fall, so I sent it out to Buck Hamlin in MO. and had him open the choke in the right hand barrel (front trigger) and have both patterened tested it and killed many pigeons after I got it back. I would recommend him to anyone, but as others have said, you can't put the removed metal back.

I also like to see the birds crumple in flight- especially barn pigeons and crows (aka- Black Ducks). But for waterfowling with mandatory steel shot loads, I have leaned to a Mossberg 835 Utility Mag 12- with the ported barrel and choke tubes-and a more open tube works best for jump shooting mallards and birds copming into the stool- for Pass shooting I use a Briley extended tube and 3" loads-

I hunted for many years with a pal who inherited a fine older Parker 16- a gauge I "pass up". He was the best shot on grouse I ever have seen in 50 years (I used the 20 Model 12 when I hunted with Noel) and he had a Setter many guys would rob a bank to buy-a natural- but neither Noel or his wife liked game birds, so he'd give them to the farmers and to his partner after the day's hunt- wow- riddled with shot- I finally convinced him to pattern that Old Reliable at the club (we have a patterning board) and it was throwing 80% patterns from either barrel at 30-35 yards- 30" circle std.

I am sure I lowered the "resale value" of that nice older Elsie by having Buck open the right barrel, although you cannot see a single tool mark in the muzzle- that is craftsmanship and fine work, in my book. But as I don't plan to sell it, I made my decision and didn't regret it one bit. Just curios though- my Smith with 30" barrels weighs 6 lbs. 12 oz. unloaded- I'd bet your 12 gauge M21 skeet with 26" barrels weighs a full pound more?? RWTF

Don't cry about opening Elsie's choke. For gunning mostly over decoys my 12ga 1938 Elsie Specialty M/F was either missing spectacularly or pulping. That was five or six years ago when members here fired up my love of doubles and advised me on the Specialty---the first I'd seen. Opening the chokes turned it from a maybe-gun to one I use and enjoy.

Bob, open them to Cyl/IC or Cyl/Skeet 2. As you said, modern loads, especially high quality reloads, pattern tightly. IC would be good to 30-35 yds with 1 oz of shot; a long shot for grouse or woodcock in my experience. Cylinder is perfect for most first shots on grouse.
Joe

I think you would get very good use from a gun with one barrel bored sort of open and the othe barrel bored sort of not open.

Just opened up a Grulla that was Full & "Fuller", to .005"
and .015 ... about Skeet & Light Modified.

For me, with approropriate shot sizes and good quality factory loads or reloads, a very useful combination for grouse, woodcock,
and pheasant ... or the odd round of Sporting, 5-Stand or Skeet.