Did you guys see this one?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=128663762

I've had it in my hands and it's very cool.

OWD

OWD:

Do you have access to this longarm and can you see if there are any initials on the tubes as well as read what is on the watertable? The forend lug and flats are very similar to Stallones Daly project gun as well as a Lindner Daly. Stallones' Daly project gun was finished in Germany and it the Golcher was finished in the U.S. of A., knowing whether it has initials stamped on the tubes just might be enlightening.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There's a phone # in the Gunbroker listing. Give it a ring. The guy you'll speak with knows about all the marks and he can help you out.

OWD

Just ran to the gun safe to check and see if mine is still there (it is!). This gun is apparently virtually identical to my Lindner Golcher which is as special a big gun as I own. Mine has Lindner's mark on the barrels - bet this one does as well. Wonderful gun.

Joe:

Are there any initials on the underside of your tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All I can say is "Wow." OWD -- what are the stock dimensions on this gun?

Nice gun with funny bores and repaired stock once in two pieces. I'm with Joe Taylor, it's a Lindner like the ones we own. My Golcher ten has barrels that measure about .900 outside at the chokes compared to the .850 on the listed gun. Yet my gun is nowhere near the weight of the listed gun. I was almost convinced that the listed gun was once a 12 gauge until the bores were monkeyed with. Oh well. Obviously, someone has been "in this gun". Has anyone gotten the seller to mention the serial number? Joe or I would probably be willing to bid more agressively is this gun were consecutively numbered to our guns. By the way, Joe, I don't have your serial number recorded where I can find it. What is your number? Mine is #1741. If you don't want to post yours, let me know and I will provide my email. Murphy

Murphy,

I spoke with the seller last week. The stock is cracked all the way through. He did his own repair. He also talked about the jug chokes and his belief that they are original. I believe the number on the barrels is 1164.

Pete

BTW:

The owner of the gun isn't just some guy fiddlin' around with old guns.

It's this guy:

http://www.britannia-sports.com/

He knows a thing or two about nice doubles. If you have any questions, give him a ring. He'll answer them.

OWD

Bores in the .730s?? This is a 12 gauge with ruined chokes and muzzles, and probably reamed out chambers if it will accept ten gauge cases. I will further predict that the seller has a bathroom scale that he weighs guns on. I am not saying this isn't a good gun, just that it isn't quite what the seller is describing. I commend him for giving proper bore dimensions as well as giving the true measurements of the jug chokes. A nine pound eleven ounce twelve gauge would be an unusual gun indeed. If the advertised weight is in fact correct, I apologize for my bathroom scale remark.

Oh well, it was once was a wondeful gun. Too bad. Murph, mine is #2010.

Eightbore-

It sounds like you took the time to call the guy and talk to him about his gun. Good for you. It's the decent thing to do. And I trust you're a decent guy.

Only a jerk would trash guy's gun before he did everything he could to find out all about it.

BTW: I'm going to see him today and I'll ask him how you two came upon the 12g conclusion.

OWD

I didn't talk to anyone about the gun. The bore dimensions were posted on this thread. It was easy to come on the 12 gauge conclusion just from the information provided. There aren't any ten gauge guns out there with .730 some bores. I'm not trashing anyone's gun, just giving good information from the evidence I have to work with. I would love to own the gun just the way it is. I will not contact the owner, I will let him contact me if he wishes to.

So let me get this straight:

-You have not seen the gun in person

-You have not measured the gun

-You have not talked to the owner about the gun (even though his number is in the listing)

-You have not had the gun apart and in your hands for inspection

But you're sure you're right and the seller is wrong.

Interesting.

OWD

The seller gave us his bore dimensions. I've been around the block with older double guns for fifty years. I have yet to see a ten gauge gun with .730 some bores, especially not a Lindner Golcher. I think I'm giving the gun a pretty good report by saying I'd like to own it. What more can I do? If a potential buyer is confident that a jug choked gun with ten gauge chambers and twelve gauge bores is as it was made, from the factory, let him bid on the gun and take it home. You're up.

I can not remember ever seeing a 12 bore gun of this vintage by any maker that came in at 9&3/4 lbs.....excepting a bore rifle. I'm not completely sold on the idea of it being a 12 in the beginning, but I am no expert on Lindner or Golcher. Interesting thread.
Steve

Before you go any further;would someone please explain "jug choked" and why an o/d measurement over the "jug choke is important.

It might help to explain choke first. Choke is the difference between bore diameter and the tighter "choked" section of the bore near the muzzle. On a gun with little or no choke, a "jug choke" can be installed by increasing the bore diameter a few inches behind the muzzle effectively increase the bore for this area of the barrel. The barrel now would have an increased bore in the area that has been "jug choked" and a constriction at the muzzle. The reason the OD is listed is to give a very rough idea of the barrel wall thickness in the area that was bored out.Much easier for me to sketch on a piece of paper than explain. I hope that was not too confusing.
Steve

Here is the definition from MidwayUSA GunTec

A type of shotgun barrel constriction used on a barrel that either does not have a choke, or that has had the choke or choke thread portion cut off. Using an expanding reamer, a small area of the bore is recessed about one to two inches back from the muzzle. When fired, the shot pellets will tend to bunch up at area of slightly larger diameter, be constricted again the remaining bore of the original diameter and pattern in a slightly tighter formation.
http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/showterm?TermID=2956

A jug choke right from the maker is very unusual, but not unheard of.

Pete

double check that drawing Pete.....Your area of constriction in the jug choke is backwards....

Thanks Steve. I killed it for the time being.

Pete

thanks Pete and SKB. In the past I have had jug choke invoked when I complained to a dealer that the bores of a gun were way out of proof.

In Diggory's book he mentions guns with 20 gauge bores and 12 gauge chambers. Could this be something similar?

I haven't measured a Lindner gun with barrels made with the "vena contracta" concept (often confused with the 12-20) most of us are familiar with. The vena contracta, as I recall, is a tapered bore system. A bore that goes from a ten gauge chamber to a .730 something bore is something I have not seen.

John Mann has been urging my to register with this group for some
time and now that my gun has been commented on I though I would
reply
1. I can see no evidence of the of the chambers altered, if they have been it was early in the guns life, to open the chambers
to next gauge is not easily done.
2. the action face has pitting around the strikers of 10 gauge
cartridges showing that it has been heavily used as such
3. The scales used to weigh the gun have a resolution of 0.2 oz
the gun weighs 9lbs 11.2ozs brls weigh 5lbs 6.6ozs
4. I gave the od of the brls over the jug choke section as my
wall thickness gauge was giving variable results because of the
jug choking
5.the gun number is 1161
6.The stock was very poorly repaired when I acquired the gun
(repaired with a piece of bent 3/8 steel key stock and glued with some unknown grey glue that had not set, and the edges of the break had been heavily peened was a hammer) I cleaned up the
break and re inlet the two sides of the break together and then
glued it back together while held in a stock vise, then machined
the stock through the break to insert a glue wood spline
re inlet the action and trigger plate and refinished and chquered as needed
7.The action flats are marked with the makers name (Thos L Golcher) and number also with the following mark H.KLT inside
a oval the first and last are over stamped over some other letters the size of the oval is .250" long x .163high the letters and the oval a peer to be a one piece stamp applied when the gun was made, any ideas what it means? .
8. John Mann has seen the gun and says it was made by Linder possibly a 165 grade there are no Linder markers on the brls

Hope this information helps I was to busy to post earlier
SGH

Have Thomas Golcher 10ga 12ga two bbl set #1120-no proofs
assume Linder Hammer
Had Clark & Sneider #482 10 Ga chamber cylinder .729 bore
with no choke @ 9-9 1/2 lb 32 in. Hammer
Have E THomas Jr Hammerless 16 ga chamber,18 ga cylinder bore
Reguards
Bill

I concur that the listed gun is a ten gauge with 12 gauge bores. I would love to throw a few patterns with that great gun.

What is the advantage of 12ga bores for a 10ga? Simply to make it throw tighter patterns?

Pete

Pete, I think the advantage was mostly the "better mousetrap" theory. Like 25 " Churchill barrels, or Lefever tapered bores, or Hellis featherweight guns. It was all having to do with "how do I sell a gun " when others are offering similar products.

As we have found over the years, Daryl is right on. I will never say never as long as my friend Doctor McPhail can provide an example of a strange phenomenon in gunmaking. If Clark and Sneider built a ten gauge with 12 gauge bores, Tom Golcher probably put a few together to compete. After all, they were after the same market along the Delaware River and down to the Maryland Shore. We Maryland boys were (and are) dumb as stones and would buy anything that would shoot big bullets and is hard to carry.

sgh:

It appears that the "H.KLT" is overstamped on a "C" facing the other way. Are there any initials on the underside of the tubes near the lower rib just ahead of the flats?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It's certainly not unusual for a Lindner gun to be underbored. Mine is a 13/1 gun--apparently not messed with much in terms of honing etc, because the bores still measure about .717, which is .012 underbore for a 12ga. Have seen the same thing quite frequently on other older German guns. Of course a 10ga with 12ga bores is way more serious underboring than that.

Larry, we often see British doubles with different bore diameters. I had a Hollis Bentley and Playfair with 12 and 13/1 bores. Thinking this odd, I asked one of the British well known gunsmiths about it. He said it was not uncommon and that he had even seen it on Boss etc. guns.

I have a great deal of confidence in the probability that the "H.KLT" initials were administered by either August Heinrich Klett of Suhl or Heinrich Christoph Keltt of Zella St. Blasii who stayed deep in tube making until the late 1920s with the addition of "Sohne" to the title with Heinrich Louis Klett who migrated to stocking. True Lindner's stamp of approval isn't there, but the components seem to have been sourced from the same craftsmen. H.A. Lindner may have been the go-between or brokered the deal for Golcher to obtain the components. The U.S. of A. was the market; the craftsmen of Suhl, or Zella St. Blasii & Mehlis, possessed the talent and H.A. Lindner was valve by which the product and funds could flow. Some sources give that Lindner may have made very few of his products. If this example is void of any Lindner marks it may very well support that theory and it is the model in Lindner's mind coupled with the capability of the craftsmen in Suhl that allowed for the end product. Lindner's stamp could be viewed as a seal of approval as well as a tracking system for being paid. So the treasure that all Lindner aficionados long for is actually a product of the craftsmen of the cottage industry of Suhl, including Zella St. Blasii and Mehlis, with H.A. Lindner as the conductor. But, but the conundrum herein lies with the Klett stamp on the watertable of this example only.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

ellendr
yes the the overstamped letter is a reverse c, there are no markings on the underside of the brls only the number on the flats

Thanks. With the tubes being devoid of initials, it may very well support the argument that the initials are a tracking system for begin compensated. Your example provides some insight to some possibilities of the craftsmen for the Daly and Lindner doubles. Lindner didn't perform the final inspection on this example and I'm even more curious if Klett did the final fitting or was just involved in the barrels.

As a side note, the Klett clan began making weapons in the latter part of the 16th Century and have had grinding wheels/machines and boring devices ever since. I don't know how many branches are on the Klett family tree, but Helmut Klett, an apprentice at the Adamy establishment prior to WWII, is purported to have been the last Klett gunmaker in Suhl before departing after WWII.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for the information on the marks

regards
SGH

Daryl, I've also seen that on British doubles. My Lindner Daly is marked 13/1 on both barrels and in fact, bore diameter is about 001-002 apart.

Some sources give that Lindner may have made very few of his products. If this example is void of any Lindner marks it may very well support that theory and it is the model in Lindner's mind coupled with the capability of the craftsmen in Suhl that allowed for the end product. Lindner's stamp could be viewed as a seal of approval as well as a tracking system for being paid. So the treasure that all Lindner aficionados long for is actually a product of the craftsmen of the cottage industry of Suhl, including Zella St. Blasii and Mehlis, with H.A. Lindner as the conductor.

The above was a part of Raimey's post.
I have no argument with this and have publish such in the DGJ.

But, one must recognize that Lindner did have a gun making business and produced some near 4000 world class SXSs under his marks.

It is true that he outsourced forgings, mostly from Sauer, and parts from the best in the area. BUT---the coupling of these parts with his workmen's highest standards of finish, paved the way for him to be the man in Germany that Daly trusted to supply the best of the best for the most discerning of American shooters.
Damned if I can fault Mayback for outsourcing some parts to be used in a fairly decent automobile.:}
Best,
John
PS---Welcome Stephen, my friend.

Mr. Mann:

I too concur with what you state and by no means detract from the genius of the Lindner gunmaking folk. For easier math say he produced 4500 longarms and worked from 1885 to 1915, 30 years. So on the average that's 3 per week. I don't see how he could do it with a small workshop say with 5 men or so. He just about had to source components in the white from the craftsmen of Suhl and surrounding areas. Lindner, with his brilliant mind and every peering eyes, set the bar high and the craftsmen of Suhl rose to the occasion. If the stamped initials were the same on most examples, I would say he had assembled a team of sorts. But there are several sets initials; therefore, he sourced possibly the whole of Suhl. It is these unsung craftsmen that also deserve at least some acknowledgment.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Any one have any information about this one? I have never seen a lock-up like it before.

It is a 12ga with a skeleton butt plate

The only mark on the barrel flat is an H.

tunes

I wonder if he was a brother to Thomas, http://www.google.com/patents?id=Do1CAAA...y_r&cad=0_0
&
http://www.google.com/patents?id=c31LAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 ? I'm curious if he sourced the components from Belgium or Germany and made it himself.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lindner produced from the mid 1870s(1874) til 1914.
He remained Daly's agent for several more years after the war.
He left the gun making business when his son, Ernst, was killed in said war.His faultless eye approved other's production, for shipment to Daly, for some time after that.
Best,
John

This gun is by William Golcher. A very rare item.
Raimey !!! Jump back !!! You are very near a hot stove of truth.LOL
I bow to PeteM's superior research into this family.
Time to chime in Pete.:}
Best,
John

Hold on this gets a bit sticky because of repeating first names.

William was the grandson of William Golcher (born 23 October 1795) of Darlaston, Staffordshire. William ( born 1795 ) had 13 children, many died in infancy. 2 of his children that lived were Joseph (who never left England) and James. Together they continued their father's lock making business. The Golcher's had started out as nail makers and became lock makers in the late 1700's. Their grand uncle had been a gunmaker for the American Revolution making barrels in Philadelphia.

In 1834 James had a son, William. In 1840, James immigrated and set up shop in Gettysburg, PA. In 1841, he sent for his wife and children. His son Thomas L Golcher was born in 1842. In 1843 or so, he moved his family and shop to Philadelphia were he reminded the rest of his life. William was foreman of his father's gun making business. In 1855, William moved to St Paul, MN. His brothers, Thomas and James moved to Joliet, IL, then to Chicago, IL. Eventually Thomas was to return to Philadelphia.

William became very involved in the life of St. Paul. He was a member of the first volunteer fire fighters. He was a member of the St Paul Shooting Club, devoted to live pigeon shoots. He was a commissioner that had several lakes stocked with trout in Minnesota ( he was a passionate fisherman ). He was on the St. Paul City Council. He retired and sold off his business in St. Paul, MN in 1873.



While in England he met J.P. Clabrough in 1877. Eventually, he purchased a controlling share in Clabrough's San Francisco business. William moved his family there. A Golcher ran the business until 1949.

Patent 88470 by William Golcher for breechloading shotgun. He also had patent 95998 for a breechloading rifle. In 88470 he states:

Tunes, if that is your gun, please contact me at movie@damascus-barrels.com I have a request. That gun is only example I have seen of this patent. Many of William's early percussion guns are museum pieces today.

Pete

Pete,

Yes, the gun is mine, e-mail sent.

tunes

A couple of people contacted me. I believe that Daly paid Wm Golcher for the use of his patent. So, it is a Daly gun. It all fits in the time frames stated above by John Mann and Raimey. I believe Daryl may have something to add.

Tunes, thanks for the reply. A rare piece of American gunsmithing.

Pete

"Laminated" barrels on tunes gun?

Would have expected a "damascus" label given the pattern....too early or a german thing not to be more specific?

Just wondering,
Mark

Mark,

Yep, I saw that. 1st you have to figure out where the rib was done; Belgium, Germany or here? Take your pick.

Pete

Nit picking...I know!

Good point Pete, but I am not sure even the rib is laminated..I see a central star and the hint of twisting pattern in the gap between Daly and Fine? It does seem like the closer you go towards the muzzles though it gets more "laminated" vague.

Did they really care then to the level we scrutinize these things now about exact terminoligy(SP?) or are you saying the different countries would have different terms for the same thing?

Mark

The terms changed based on country and era. Translations sometimes got mixed up. Twist in England became Laminated in Belgium which was called something else in Italy. Towards the end of the damascus era, more tended to the Belgian names, but not always.

Also the names of certain patterns got changed based on the customer. Who in Italy or England is going to buy a pattern called Boston? About the only named pattern that stayed the same across time and place was Bernard.

Also, many guns were being sold that were completely browned or blackened. Did they care? Gun pricing changed based on the pattern.

But all this is far from the subject of Daly.

Pete

Clabrough & Golcher Ad/info 1891 -
http://books.google.com/books?id=NEFDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA98&dq=golcher&lr=#PPA98,M1

William Golcher - 1886 -
http://books.google.com/books?id=b2ETAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA544&dq=golcher&lr=#PPA544,M1

John Golcher & late 18th Century Penn-German connection - 1908 -
http://books.google.com/books?id=XD07AAAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA7&dq=golcher&lr=#PRA2-PA7,M1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The "C" may be an overstamp from an attempt with a "C.KL." stamp/die for Christoph/Christian Klett, who was with the firm Chr. Klett and Sohne which implies that at some point his son entered the trade as tradition and changed the name, as tradition also, to include his son. The dies could have been mixed and it could be one of Heinrich's early products.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not sure if this is a Lindner Daly, but it is a Daly hammergun. Unusual "Laminated" barrel material.

I'm positive, until proven wrong, that it is a Georg Lindner sourced Daly double as the same network of folks are shown as being compenstated for their contribution of craftsmanship to the end product. I don't think Daly had any other contacts in Suhl but Georg Lindner, who held the keys to the network of superb craftsmen.

There's an initial or set of initials ahead of the non-standard Heinrich August Lindner forend lug which looks to be a "W"? Ken probably will know, but it may have been made before H.A. took the reins.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse