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Posted By: zwego SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/18/09 11:48 PM
I am interested in building or buying a sporting clays gun to be used in sxs competition and would appreciate any input. I am willing to spend about $3-4000 to build this gun. I saw a recent post with someone using a Browning BSS 30” to do this and that is certainly an option. However, I would like something with a bit better wood and a little finer triggers (although the BSS I use for skeet is very good). Guns that I am considering are the RBL 12 g with pistol grip & beavertail forearm w single trigger (not sure of the trigger for competition), a Bernadelli Las Palomas pigeon gun with aftermarket chokes, a Beretta 411 or 471, a Win 21 if I can find one at this price point or the modified BSS. I didn’t think an older gun would hold up as well as one of these, although I would be open to suggestions.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks
Z
Posted By: eightbore Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 12:10 AM
At the price point you mention, you won't have a lot of room for modifications, restocking, or upgrades, so I would suggest buying a gun you like in its present configuration, either out of the box or the way you find it. I would agree with the 30" BSS, the Model 23 Heavy Duck, an RBL 30" or 32", Beretta Silver Hawk 30", or a rusty Model 21 that hasn't been shot much. The Model 21 should be rusty only to keep the price within your limits. In your situation, I would order the RBL in the configuration of your choice.
Posted By: 12brd Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 12:29 AM
Hmmm model 21 eh? Maybe you should check out my for sale post in the guns for sale section. You might have to do a seach as its probably a couple of pages back. We aren't that far off on price. JW
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 06:32 AM
sakaba 385 or 485 sporting clays model with vr and briley inter-chokes as standard features. sadly only available on 2nd-hand market now.
Posted By: Mark Ouellette Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 11:19 AM
The Model 21 Duck, Model 23 Heavy Duck and RBL-12 are all good choices for sporting clays. I own one of each. The Model 21 has the style and grace of a fine gun. The Model 23 is somewhat graceful and of a very solid solid. The RBL is the absolute best value.

For about $3000 one can order an RBL with a beavertail fore end and 30" or 32" barrels. The RBL comes with Tru Lock chokes that are marked safe for use with Hevi Shot. My RBL-12 has 32" barrels, 4x wood (heavier that the standard 2x), BTFE, and vent rib, and weighs 9 pounds 3 ounces. That seems heavy but the gun handles amazingly well for something of that weight. Once I swing it I don't have to worry about "stopping the swing"! It just crushes targets that I thought I was too slow for... Oh, the $500 vent rib option is not necessary. Put that money into a wood upgrade.

PS: Since you live in RI which is close to CSMC in CN why don't you call Lou in their gun room and arrange a visit? They should have more than a few Model 21's and a RBL-12 or two that you could compare.
Posted By: jerry66stl Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 04:15 PM
For a whole lot less $$$, one can purchase a nice used Husqvarna, Simpson, or Sauer (under $800) with 28" or 30" barrels; and then add choke tubes and a new recoil pad. If interested, look on-line at Simpson Ltd. in Galesburg, IL. Cabela's also has several of these lower-priced greman SxS's.

Jerry G
Posted By: eightbore Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 04:29 PM
Jerry brings up a good point. I left out low mileage low grade Foxes and Parkers because I thought the original poster wanted competition style stocking, ribs, single trigger, etc. In real life side by side competition, good shooters using standard field style Sauers, Parkers, Smiths, you name it, score right up there with those who use full race side by sides. Some of the highest scoring competitors at the Smith-Parker Challenge at the Southern Side by Side Shoot use long barrel standard field style guns, even hammer guns.
Posted By: NiklasP Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 07:06 PM
Second suggestion of plain version of Sauer, Merkel or Husqvarna top lever doubles, either external or internal hammers. I use such old hammer doubles with 75-80+ cm barrels (about 30-33 inches) and various solid chokes for clay target games and also for all my bird hunting. Most I have paid for any was about USD1000.

Aside from finding one in excellent mechanical condition, finding one stocked such that it mounts and points and swings really well for you is main issue.

To get heavier weights will likely have to go with internal hammer doubles in 12 bore.

Niklas
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 08:47 PM
I guess it depends on how much/many shells you shoot...but I'd always go with the nice older Gun...for the prettysoul factor..as long as it fits, but thats just me...like a medium pigeon or duck gun this one is only 1200$...bet you could find a lovely vintage Boxlock Extract in fine shape to fit you for 3/4000 if you look hard http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12446
good luck
franc
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 08:54 PM
There are almost no SxS's that can withstand heavy competitive clays use. An RBL with adjustable comb and a warranty comes closest.
The warranty just for the sake of relatively prompt repair service, as compared to the Sakaba's.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 09:34 PM
Clapperzapper,
As to your first line...where do you get that info from?
I agree there is no Warranty with older guns...But if you are correct he has almost no choicesto choose from, does he???
But if you can find a nice solid & robust heavy proofed older gun in fine nick...why wouldn't it hold up?
Earl D'Greys old Purdeys Put Hundreds of thousands of birds down didn't they?..I think he had three of em, but if you find a good one I don't see why its that bad an idea.
The RBL has,nt been around long enough for a verdict..surely?
Hey, I just like old Guns, and like to use em ...
ZWEGO...how many rounds would you be shooting per year..& what loads..
cheers
Franc
Posted By: mike campbell Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 09:36 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
There are almost no SxS's that can withstand heavy competitive clays use. An RBL with adjustable comb and a warranty comes closest.
The warranty just for the sake of relatively prompt repair service, as compared to the Sakaba's.



Hmmmmm...a couple of questions:

can you define "withstand heavy competitive clays use?"

and how did the RBL with its 6 month warranty earn this acclaim? have they been tearing up the clays courses?
Posted By: Replacement Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 09:42 PM
Why not a Sterlingworth Field with a little stock bending and a fresh pad. Sterlys are stout, not too expensive, reasonably pretty, and readily available.
Posted By: zwego Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/19/09 10:36 PM
Thanks for the replies and input. Some comments:
I shoot informally today, probably 1000 shells or so a year but in the past have run over 4-5000 per year through my guns. Job and timing prevent a more extensive shoot schedule currently but I have hopes to get back to “higher mileage” in the future. Realistically, the gun needs to be able to sustain about 1000 rounds a year with very high reliability and very consistent trigger pulls, a major issue with me on a target gun. Currently I shoot a variety of guns including an SO4, Browning 425 and a heavily modified Rem 1100 at sporting clays as well as a Rem 3200, BSS and Ruger Woodside with reworked triggers) at skeet.
I had not looked at SKBs, although the 385 would certainly fit the bill but I have never really been fond of the look of their guns. Not a Japanese thing on my part as I really like my BSS - but it has a different look. However, I will find a 385 to handle as my opinion has been largely made on the basis of O/Us.
I have been to CSMC several times, most recently on Monday. While there, I did look at both a Win 21 with 30” barrels ($8K) as well as an RBL with 32” barrels & vent rib. I did not like the vent rib as it has no filing or other means to knock down glare on the rib - as well as costing $450 over the standard rib which looked better to me. The gun was a little nose heavy, not bad on a clays gun and I was told it has an adjustment in the stock to change the balance point. The “engraving” is a little less obnoxious (to me) than the earlier 20 ga RBLs I had seen and the case colors were nice - so overall it would be a reasonable choice. Just don’t know the trigger performance or longevity. The Mdl 21 was very pleasant to handle and seemed to move well in the showroom whereas the RBL is a little more ponderous. Not a major issue, just a difference.
I don’t have an issue with a “project” gun but if I dump $3-4000 into a project, I would hope to be able to get out about neutral. My experience with older guns and this type of modification is that I would be lucky to get back about half of my actual cost of modification.
Regarding a SxS vs. O/U for longevity, I don’t think that the action type makes a great deal of difference. O/Us only became popular in the 1930s or so and until then the SxS guns dominated the clays area as well as for several years thereafter. The narrower sight plane of an O/U has some advantage on some clay sports but it is interesting that in the most difficult of “target games” - live birds - SxS are still very popular.
Hope this helps a little and thanks again for all of the feedback.
Thanks
Z
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 12:26 AM
The man said $3-$4000.00
That eliminates almost the entire new market.
Some clubs are non-tox only. He has some competition guns. He has specific trigger ideas.

The list gets shorter and shorter.
I could not see a way to get there from here, and be happy.

1000 rounds, without concern for winning a national anything, doesn't really qualify in my mind as "competitive". That's fun shooting, and you should shoot what you like and hope it doesn't break.

My thoughts really involved registered competition, and keeping the tool running under a heavy load. Different question entirely.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 12:28 AM
What weight ,stock specs,griptype,chokes,bbl length are you after?
What weight shot,velocity,& PSI????
Just interested ....
cheers
franc
PS...for 4 or 5000 rounds a years...I'd use any of the two descent vintage Guns I have///both medium 7 1/2lb Pigeon type Guns..with my 1oz loads...or 1 1/8oz too
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 12:42 AM
I like to shoot old guns too. I just don't like to break them.
Horses for courses and all.
I don't like to alter them either (unless they are already broken)
so adding choke tubes is a no-no to me as well.
So, to me anyway, taking a vintage shotgun, and spending a bunch of money to make it into what it is not, and was never intended to be, and then shoot steel shot through it, isn't interesting.
It's just an opinion of course.
Posted By: Tyler Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 01:30 AM
There is a man who consistantly wins our local "log a load" charity sporting clays shoot. He took a Browning BSS with 30" barrels and sent it to Wills in Montgomery Al who restocked it to suit him. I am not sure who added the tubes, prbably Briley. Bottom line, he has close to your budget in a drop dead fine looking sxs sporting clays gun. I can put you in touch with him if you wish.
Posted By: KMcMichael Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 01:36 AM
Don't rule out using your hunting gun with some light 7/8 oz loads. You do not need screw chokes,single trigger or ejectors for sporting, however ejectors are nice.

I shoot at least a thousand rounds a year with my 12 ga Arrieta w light loads.

I have a sterlingworth that I tried to use for targets even though it is heavy, the low stock beats me to death.

As of late I have shot my SXS better than my K-80
Posted By: Replacement Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 02:37 AM
Quote:
the low stock beats me to death.


That's why I suggested bending the Sterly. Mine is at 2-3/8" DAH and holding.
Posted By: mike campbell Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 03:11 AM
A 1926 Philly Fox Sterlingworth,a chunk of wood and a can of Bondo...








32" #2 barrels, IM/IM, 8 lbs even. Over 22,000 rounds fired since completion 18 months ago....no detectable wear.

Well under $3,000 invested.

Not for sale.
Posted By: QTRHRS Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 04:11 AM
Zwego,

As I have no idea how to post a thread reference, I brought the thread concerning the Bo Whoop Cup to the top. Mr. Campbell seems to have turned out a gun that is more than just good looking. Congratulations Mike.
Posted By: DoubleTake Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 04:18 AM
Originally Posted By: KMcMichael
Don't rule out using your hunting gun with some light 7/8 oz loads. You do not need screw chokes,single trigger or ejectors for sporting, however ejectors are nice.

I shoot at least a thousand rounds a year with my 12 ga Arrieta w light loads.

I have a sterlingworth that I tried to use for targets even though it is heavy, the low stock beats me to death.

As of late I have shot my SXS better than my K-80


Ditto!

I quit trying to put together a SxS "clays" gun when I realized I always did my best at clays with my light hunting SxS using light loads.
Posted By: Katie and Jessie Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 09:06 AM
With 3,000 to 4,000 to spend you could take a SKB model 100 or a 150 and restok it and have the frame case colored. Add a leather covered pad and you have a nice looking gun that has a great reptuation for staying sound for a long time. I did this to a model 150 and have a total of 1750.00 invested in it. I did a lot of the work myself but it is a nice looker now.

I just bought a model 100 to customize for my son-in-law.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards, Gordon
Posted By: zwego Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 11:44 AM
Again, thanks for the replies and input.
I do like the Fox and the excellent wood work. I had considered using a Sterlingworth as a platform for this gun but had moved away from that idea for two reasons, a concern over longevity with an older gun (obviously not the case with the gun shown) and my preference for a single trigger. Which generally brought me back to the BSS and a similar redo to the Fox or the other BSS mentioned. What I am weighing is the cost of doing this work, which should be in the price range I am looking for, vs. the “out of the box” RBL. As I noted earlier, I would like to be able to get out “cost neutral” or if I put in $3-4000 to be able to at least recoup the money. Although I can build a lovely shooter, which may be what I end up doing, I do not have something that I can turn over for what I have invested. So far, I have been fortunate to have guns (new and “used”) that I can do that with. Regarding shooting an “as is” field SxS, I can do that and have - but find that I do not generally shoot them as well as a dedicated target gun. While I would not want to carry a 8 lb gun around in the field, my Arrizabalaga (6-¼ lbs) or my Parker are much more difficult to control at target games. I can shoot mid 20s with them at skeet but it is work and the recoil is noticeable.
So, my leaning is still toward the RBL or the BSS upgrade (knowing I will likely not get a return for this work).
Thanks
Z
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 03:09 PM
Nice job Mike.

All considered Zwego, your BSS idea comes closest to getting you out whole after campaigning. Parts are available, lots of smiths familiar with the gun, hell for stout. Cost neutral is another complexity of course.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 09:28 PM
Clapper...& of course, I agree with your opinion that spending lots of cash in changing a vintage Gun into what it isn't is a bad idea.
The ones I'm talking about are kinda target guns, just 70 odd years old.Modern high shooting stocks ...but you only get two chokes!
I had a nearly "New"1926 Francotte 20e from , factory vent rib,32" bbls...8lb 6oz....%95 condition bought from dear ol'Owleye.
I'd defy anyone to say that wasn't a purpose built modern target buster, if they saw it..awesom.
To much Gun for me though.
Each to own way
cheers
franc
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/20/09 10:41 PM
Mine was way nicer...Francotte 20e Live Bird Gun.but both about around same age I think
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...b12_07l_haz.jpg
Franc
Posted By: T.R.Kline Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/21/09 01:18 AM
Zwego:

I spent much of last year trying to find a platform to build a SxS sporting gun. I found a Fox A Grade with 30" perfect bbls, and modern stock dimensions in terrific shape. With a period Silver's Pad, the LOP = 15", with DOC = 1 1/2 and D@H = 2 3/8. It has some cast-off, I can't recall the heel and toe measurements. At roughly 7 1/2 lbs it's heavy enough to attenuate recoil. The chambers were lengthened to accomodate modern 2 3/4" shells and I had Briley steel screw-in chokes installed. The guns is sound, strong and dependable. It does have double triggers, but even if you had Turnbull install a Miller single trigger you would still be well within or below your target cost. If you would like to talk more about the gun, please contact me at tkline@mhcable.com.
Posted By: Hal M Hare Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/21/09 06:57 AM
I have been shooting my 16 Gauge RBL at clays and have not found the smooth rib to be an issue. I had planned to use an aftermarket rib if it was an 'issue' but that has not been the
case.

IMHO the 12 gauge RBL would be you best choice. New steel and close tolerances. The forearm lug has been inproved over the SKB version, and the RBL should prove to be a good performer.
Posted By: popplecop Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/21/09 12:31 PM
Beautiful job, how I envy people with such talent.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/21/09 04:31 PM
Hal, Tell us about your experiences shooting high volume with your 21's.
That's a beautiful Fox. Unless I was a master stocker, and had an annealing furnace, I can't make a Sterly 12 bought today into that for $3,000.00 There's a nice thread on the internals and their wear on Upland Journal in the gun forum. Every little thing just piles on time and cost.
Posted By: Kevin Springman Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/21/09 05:22 PM
I just ordered a clays gun from CSMC. It will be a 21 Pigeon Grade with 32" bbls. Should make a nice shooter and go with my Fox nicely. I looked at their clays RBL's a few weeks ago and they were very nice, especially the 32" gun. I don't see how you could go wrong with that, unless you are a Mike Campbell and can build your own. He can shoot that Fox better then most too.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/21/09 05:52 PM
Nice job with bOndo....






Beautiful gun....hows she choked ?
Posted By: mike campbell Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 04:01 AM
Thanks for the nice comments, Guys.

Joe, it's choked .022 & .022. I've found those chokes and 1 ounce #7.5 do it all for me.

Making my own stocks has long been a serious hobby of mine and it meshes nicely with learning all the nuances of stock fit that are so critical to shooting better. Doing some of the work myself saved me a few hundred bucks but anybody can own a similar 12ga Fox for $3,000.

You can still buy a 12ga Sterlingworth that's unaltered and functionally as-new for $700-1,000. Don't compromise here...settle for nothing less than perfect barrels tight on face. They'll likely be 30" IM/F and excellent ones are not that uncommon.

Let's say you spent the whole $1,000.

You can buy a very nice American black walnut blank with 50% feathercrotch figure (for instance) for ~$250. A decent California English blank like I used can be had for $5-600. Buy the prettiest you can afford....pretty wood is forever.

You can send the blank and entire gun out and have the a new stock made to your specs, hand-fitted to the metal with a recoil pad and returned to you in <4 months, ready for finishing. Total cost ~$800.

You spend $10 for a can of ProCustom Oil (or whatever) and finish the stock. Anybody can finish a stock. Learn how.

You take the wood off and send all the metal parts out, as fully assembled as possible. The shop will disassemble, polish barrels and action, slow rust blue the barrels and color case harden the action, alter the chokes to your specs, reassemble and return it looking brand new for ~$800. Again <4 months.
Somewhere during this time, the finish has cured for 6-8 weeks and you've rubbed it out with some 3F-4F pumice, maybe some 5F rottenstone and you send the wood out to be nicely checkered for $150, < 1 month.

What you have, in a year or less, is not a knockout, full-custom Fox. It's just a Sterlingworth with double triggers, extractors, snap-off splinter forend and semi-pistolgrip. But the metal finishes are as fine as factory-new, the stock is seriously upgraded and, if you've done your homework, it fits you like a glove; like no off-the-rack gun is likely to. You can spend a little more at any stage, but this can definitely be done...

Gun......$1,000
Blank.......250
Stocking....800
Metal work..800
Checkering..150

for $3,000.
Posted By: Marshfellow1 Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 11:02 AM
Z,

Have you considered a 12ga Parker Repro Sporting Clays model??? It is a grand more than you hope to spend but when you're in the middle of the ocean whats a couple more drops of rain??? The Parker Repros are very high quality and have a great proven track record. The interchangeable chokes, beavertail and ejectors are a big plus...WITH steel shot use ok t'boot. Great shooting dimensions and nice wood....cased. The best part is it will be a great investment with less than a hundred of them produced. I didnt realize how nice they were until I just took one in on trade.
Posted By: Marshfellow1 Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 11:16 AM
Mike,

.....love your pictures! I've seen the gun and watched you shoot it and both are very impressive. You make the "work" sound very easy but I think it takes a ample helping of "innate ability" which some of us just cant muster. (kinda like the shooting).
Cheers!! tom
Posted By: Hal M Hare Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 06:55 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
Hal, Tell us about your experiences shooting high volume with your 21's.


ClapperZapper-
Not sure just what information you desire. The CAMC M-21 I shoot the most is a 12 gauge 2 bbl set. 28 inch bbls with Briley thin wall chokes and a 32 inch fixed choke .032 & .038.
Both barrels have vent ribs and are ported. I shoot this gun at all the target games.

After 4 years and 40,000 targets I had the trigger pull increased. The gun has a lifetime warranty and CSMC refreshed the entire gun to as new condition in less that 3 weeks.

Any poor performances are due to the shooter rather than the gun.

Hope this helps.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 07:20 PM
When I was "customizing" a 21 for sc use, I read some of your posts regarding foreend issues, and made mental note of them, that's all. I thought you might like to share your wear and repair experiences with those considering a similar effort.
I don't know if CSMC warrantied the repairs, or charged you for them under wear or abuse.
If I am mis-remembering the posts, I apologize.
Posted By: J. Hall Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 08:23 PM
Club Clay Shooting had an on line magazine that, among other things, reviewed guns. An article about a FabArms SxS with 30" barrels, adjustable comb, tri bore barrels, four locking lugs, etc. said its build quality is about like a Citori clay gun. It apparently was built for clay target shooting. It appeared to be sturdy enough to just shoot and not worry about too much. The price is probably below the $3-$4k range.

http://web.archive.org/web/20061109070322/www.clay-shooting.com/guntests/index.html if you scroll down to the Fabarm link July 2002 it gives the review.
Posted By: nialmac Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 09:46 PM
Where can you get a stock and forend made from your own wood for $800?
Posted By: mike campbell Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/22/09 11:22 PM
Less than that 2 years ago from Donnie Gemes and Show Me Gunstocks in Warsaw, MO.
Posted By: Hal M Hare Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/23/09 12:34 AM
ClapperZapper-
You have a good memory. I have experienced three SxS forearm lug failures while shooting clays. The first was with an SKB M-485. The importer gave me a loaner for the 8 months it took to repair. The second was a high grade Huglu. The importer repaired this in two weeks--but the repairs appeared to be done with a brazing rod and were amateurishly done. The third lug failure was with a CSMC M-21. It was repaired and returned in less than 10 days and there was no evidence of repairs.

It appears this happens! The new RBL has a tail on the lug which bears against the receiver--so failure is almost impossible. The CSMC M-21 is true to the original M-21 design rather than an improved version so it could fail. A design change for the lug is out of the question for CSMC M-21s. Should the weld fail--it is covered under warranty--and quickly at no charge! I cannot complain about my service or treatment. C.S.M.C. has stood behind their product without hesitation.

Some opine the larger forearm causes the problem, but two of the guns I saw fail had beavertail forearms and one had a splinter. I use thumb pressure on the top of the barrel when opening the action rather than pulling on the forearm--so that is not an issue.

Some of the older shooters indicated this lug failure was not really unheard of and wasn't necessarily an indicator of poor workmanship.

I shoot both factory and reloads. Mostly 7/8 ounce 12 gauge loads at 1300 f.p.s.

Best wishes-
Posted By: Jimmy W Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/23/09 04:49 AM
I think you are on the right track on your opening post. A Model 21 or a BSS are both good choices. A couple of months ago we had a Vintagers shoot at our club and I shot my first ever round of sporting clays with a 21. We only shot 50 targets, but I broke a 35, which I thought was OK. I shot my skeet round with the same gun and did pretty good. The one I used was a 12 gauge, 28", straight grip, IC/M, ST. It handles nicer than any other gun I have shot. That myth about them being clunky or clumsy is pure bunk. They are without a doubt the best SXS I have ever shot with. And I have an old one I use as a beater when I hunt. Can't beat 'em. And like I said, the BSS is a great gun, too. Good luck.
Posted By: Tim Wolf Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/23/09 12:36 PM
zwego

You might also consider a Poli Sporting. Depending on current exchange rates you may be able to order a new one close to your price range. Especially if you should choose to go without ejectors or side plates. Fixed chokes would also save a little.
Posted By: Bob Cash Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/23/09 08:44 PM
zwego, I have your gun.
For the second time I have had Art of Art's Gun and Sport Shop in Hillsboro MO. mate a set of 30" BSS barrels to a BSS Sporter Frame. The finished product is a 30 inch Sporter that balances at the hingepin, oil finished english stock with semi-beavertail forend, single selective trigger, auto safety. DAC 1 5/8, DAH 2 5/8 and a LOP of 14 3/4 to a Kick-Eez pad. Wood is uncut and I've retained the Browning buttplate. Choked Full/Mod and just waiting for a set of Briley thinwalls.
I've been shooting it's twin at Skeet, S.C. and Continental Trap with such success that my buddies have suggested I sell all my other guns, that I had found my ultimate. I have also been shooting an original BSS 30 inch with a PG stock, mammouth beavertail forend and a blinding high gloss finish that's no slouch either.
It was said earlier that almost no side by side would/could stand up to thousands of rounds of heavy shooting. I beg to differ and offer up the Browning BSS side by side as a gun that can take it.
Art Issacson, a 25 year Browning gunnsmith has told me he feels the Brownings are dollar for dollar every bit as tough a gun as a Winchester 21. I own and shoot both and would have to agree.

99% gun shipped insured to your FFL, $3,000


The leftovers are also for sale, 12 gauge, 28", PG, Mod/Full, Kick-Eez pad added, uncut stock (saved the buttplate)
99% gun, $1,200 shipped insured to your FFL.

Good luck in your search. Bob
Posted By: eightbore Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/23/09 11:55 PM
The BSS Sporter frame is different from the standard BSS frame? Explain.
Posted By: Bob Cash Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 12:55 AM
12 gauge to 12 gauge, the frame size is the same with the exception of a longer trigger tang on the Sporter.
Semi-beavertail and english stock on the Sporter vs. a huge beavertail and pistol grip on a regular BSS
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 02:36 AM
the bss frame is extremely strong. years ago butch searcy used to modify them by adding screw grip like extension to make double rifles in cal. .45-70, .45-90,.....
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 03:01 AM
Only three grand for the BSS, Bob? Pretty big premium for the barrel swap.

For $3100, he can have an RBL with 32" bbls., much nicer standard wood than any BSS ever had, a beavertail forend that's much better shaped thsn the BSS's, choice of grip (I highly recommend a pistol grip over the straight grip), a case-colored, engraved receiver, choke tubes, two pads for adjusting l.o.p., cased. Real hard choice.
JR
Posted By: Replacement Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 03:33 AM
Bob, I still need a set of 30" BSS barrels. Know where I can find them?
Posted By: Bob Cash Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 02:32 PM
What Replacement said, "Know where I can find them?".
John,
I bought 2 pristine BSS's, shipping, DROS, smithing, recoil pad, take it in the shorts on the sale of the mis-serialized leftovers. Nothing secret or magic about what I did, however it took time and $$. Cost on the 30" Sporter is probably $2,500 before chokes. I don't want or need to sell this gun. 3k is simply the price at which I would part with one of these beauties.
p.s. the BSS's have been around for over 30 years and I'll bet damn near every one that was ever made is still around. Call me in 30 years regarding your RBL. By the way, do you own and shoot an RBL such as you described??
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 03:18 PM
No, I don't, but I am seriously considering ordering one. My Launch Edition 20 ga. is one of my favorite shotguns; it is a killer gun in the exact same configuration described above except for the barrel length.

I love BSS's. I think they are terrific guns. But just because you spent a lot of dough to make a gun you like doesn't mean you can get it back when you sell it. Been there, done that.

My point was that if a guy is wanting a dedicated clays sxs and has $3000 or so to spend, the RBL as I described it is a far better buy than your BSS. If anything, the straight grip is a negative on a clays gun, imo. I think your gun is worth more like $2000 on today's market. Nothing wrong with asking, however.

As far as track record, the RBL is an improved SKB, which has proven to be a very reliable design, and the RBL is backed by CSM, should any problems arise. They have a fine reputation for taking care of their customers.
JR
Posted By: Mark Ouellette Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 04:33 PM
Up to recently I owned a BSS which was a good gun. It didn't handle as dynamic as some of my other SxS's but I did shoot many ducks with it. I did however sell it and do not miss it.

As I posted on page 1 of this thread I do own a 32" RBL with PG, BTFE, VR and DT. For a $3000 base price the RBL is a great value. I have no doubt that the RBL will hold its value and perhaps appreciate after CSMC switches production to their next project.

It is evident that everyone who posted has a different opinion of what the best $3000 SxS for sporting clays is. While I enjoy shooting sporting clays with nearly every one of my many SxS's for a serious clays gun at $3000 the RBL is a very good choice. Of course the choice is that of the buyer.
Posted By: zwego Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/24/09 10:51 PM
Again, I appreciate all of the responses. Seems like an interesting topic given the length of this thread. I had not considered a Poli but did like the photos and write up on them. However, it appears to be a bit over my planned cost as the only one I saw on the web was about $6K (with sideplates however). A Parker repro in Sporting configuration I suspect will be also pricey since they made only a few and I would think that they are now highly desirable both for collecting as well as shooting as I am interested in. Fabarm was also another gun I had not considered and it looks interesting, probably in my price range but I can’t seem to find anyone in the US that handles them - looks like a UK thing.
Which brings me back to the BSS vs RBL topic. Although I also own, like and shoot a BSS at skeet, I am not sure that making one over into a Sporting gun will allow me to recoup most of the money spent - whereas the RBL most likely will. I have no doubt that the 30" BSS noted earlier cost at least close to the asking price of $3K but the question of value is also something I consider when buying. I have modified a number of guns but unfortunately do not expect to recoup the modification costs - I only do it because it makes the gun better for me which I think was the motivation of Bob.
Given the positive comments about the RBL and the fact that it can be built very close to my specs at a price that I think I could also sell it for, it seems like the better deal. It is a valid question, about the longevity of the RBL vs the very robust BSS which is something I need to weigh - but I think I am slowly swinging over to the RBL side.
Thanks
Z
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 01:48 AM
Good thought process, Zwego. You had a question about the single trigger on the RBL regarding a clays gun. Of course, the sst is the way to go, and I bet if and when you order an RBL, you mention that it is to be a competition sxs, CSM will probably do their best to make it as crisp and near the pull weight you want as possible. Worth a try.
JR
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 10:50 AM
A single trigger on a SxS is like a set of twinkies on a Rolls Royce.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 01:47 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
A single trigger on a SxS is like a set of twinkies on a Rolls Royce.


I've seen some stupid, senseless analogies before, but I think that one ranks near the top.
JR
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 02:08 PM
I agree....it ranks right up there with a single trigger on a SxS.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 02:16 PM
Yeah, right. All those stupid Win. 21's out there nobody wants because of their single triggers.

But what's funny is someone with a pseudonym of HomelessJoe making an analogy with a Rolls Royce. The Twinkie fits, though.
JR
Posted By: Bob Cash Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 02:50 PM
Hey H.jOe,
YOu're always being accused Of making asinine cOmments regarding a myriad of subjects. YOu might try using the "Twinkie Defense" made famOus in a murder trial Of years gOne by. Simply say it's all the sugar yOu ingest On yOur diet Of primarily Twinkies that make yOu say such things.
Posted By: Mark Ouellette Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 03:48 PM
Hey guys, to each his own. I prefer double triggers and shoot my second shot without thinking about it, be it using the back trigger or front trigger. I do however have SxS's with single triggers. When I shoot those I just pull the trigger twice.

ST or DT? Once again, it is the buyer's choice.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 04:31 PM
Good point, Mark. I love double triggers on certain field guns, but on a dedicated clays gun, a single trigger works better for me.

I used to be a double trigger snob years ago, until I started shooting Sporting Clays competitively. I found it easier to transition from a field gun to my target gun when they all have single triggers. I could certainly shoot either one, but the single trigger eliminates one tiny thing that you don't have to do or think about when concentrating on the target, by not having to move between the front or back trigger for the second target.

For casual clay shooting, or tuning up for hunting season, it doesn't matter.
JR
Posted By: Bob Cash Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 04:51 PM
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon with my double trigger guns. The longer I shoot them, the straighter the front trigger gets. ???
Posted By: tunes Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 04:57 PM
hey jOe,

if nOthing else, we are all learning hOw tO spell frOm yOu!!

tUnEs
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 05:07 PM
Don't it make you lOOney tunes ?



(Robert "twinky" is slang for 20 inch rims)
Posted By: mike campbell Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 07:30 PM
Does anybody really "think" about that second trigger?
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 07:52 PM
Well, it won't get pulled if your finger stays on the other trigger, that's for sure. It's subconcious, but it does require some brain activity to move the finger from one trigger to the other. If I were swapping around from gun to gun, between double and single triggers, I know that at some point I would try to pull the front or back trigger twice.

There was a prominent British SC instructor I was reading several years ago who stated that double triggers will cost you 1-2 targets in competition. How he arrived at that is anyone's guess, but I think there is something to it.
JR
Posted By: mike campbell Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 10:02 PM
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
How he arrived at that is anyone's guess


John,
Maybe what he said was they cost him 1-2 targets. He needs to shoot more and instruct less.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 10:21 PM
Maybe. Maybe not.
JR
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/25/09 11:12 PM
Probably cost me 10 or 15....but I like um.
Posted By: tunes Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/26/09 12:33 AM
I have more trouble trying to find the second trigger on a single trigger gun when I shoot one these days.

tunes
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: SxS Sporting Clays Suggestions - 06/26/09 12:47 AM
Wait till you start reaching for hammers on a sidelock.
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