I have an Army & Navy Double Rifle/Shotgun that I am looking to find some information and possibly the value. I would imagine pictures are needed in order to get a better idea of what it is, but I will explain some of the details. It has double exposed hammers, two triggers, left barrel is rifled, right barrel is a smooth bore, it has two rear sights (one is a flip down), the slide lever to break open is located underneath the tirggerguard, it has brittish crown stamp with the V under it located on the reciever and can be seen when the action is open, has Army & Navy C.S.L. London stamped on the barrels and receiver, also located on the reciever under the barrels when the action is open is A & N C S L. Thanks for the info. You can always e-mail me at clinthecker@hotmail.com or post a response here. Thanks.

Welcome to the board. What a nice question as a first post!

Briefly, it is an underlever hammer Cape gun. Army & Navy was a co-op stared by British military officers for the purpose of provisioning themselves with wine at fair prices - the business model worked and A&N quickly expanded into many lines of goods, including guns. A&N supplied Birminghm made, many by Webly & Scott, guns in all original quality grades, farmer/colonial to best work. Cape guns were generally bought as all-around hunting guns by settlers and explorers; hunters tended to buy more purpose built guns.

If you care to, the University of Glasgow holds the A&N records and will research your serial number for a modest fee.

It is easy to post ditital photos and they are very helpful in valuation.

Any pointers on how to post a picture?

Take a look here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...ge=1#Post148935

Pete

I'm working on getting some pics on but my internet isn't working too good.

See here for details of A&N records.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_67061_en.pdf

Harry

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Link takes me to an image hosting site, but not to a specific image. Good start, though. Try again.

[img]http://[URL]http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/a263cc678c_3.98MB[/URL][/img]

[img]http://[URL]http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/bd43b51f16_3.89MB[/URL][/img] Hope these pics are coming through ok. New to this process.

Pre-1887 London proof marks for a black powder .500 double rifle (both barrels marked "39" bore). You say the right barrel is a smooth-bore now? Roughly what gauge is it?

Welcome CLH:
Harry Eales gave you the site for the records and the folks at Glasgow are very helpful. They will send you basic info for free if you send them an e-mail. I obtained a copy of the journal page for my A&N. I subsequently asked them for a copy of any catalog pages they might have from when the gun was sold. A couple of weeks later I received copies of the catalog pages that showed my gun.

Very decent folks.

Mike

I would say it is a 16 gauge. To small for a 12 gauge and a little to big for a 20 gauge. Somebody had suggested it might be a 577 round any thoughts.

There is a 3 digit number 9xx behind the trigger guard and where the pistol grip area is. It is also the same number stamped on the lower portion under the barrel when it is broke open. Is this the serial number possibly?

In terms of original proof, no, it couldn't be. As I said in my previous post, both barrels show London marks in use until 1887, and are for a .500 rifle. From your photograph of the flats, starting from the breech end (reading right to left), the marks are:

London provisional proof mark (lion rampant over the letters GP interlaced in a cypher)

London view mark (Crown over V)

Bore diameter (39)

London definitive proof mark (Crown over the letters GP interlaced in a cypher)

Nitro proof was still in the future when these marks were in use.

Prior to 1887, the British determined and marked bore diameter of rifles in exactly the same way as they did smoothbores - in gauge. In other words, a 39 gauge ball (.492") would drop through the bores of your gun, but a 38 gauge (.497") would not, so it's marked "39" gauge. Due to the method used to determine gauge, it's important to understand that this mark represents, with respect to rifles, LAND diameter, not groove, which would be 10 thou or more greater. The various British .500 rifle cartridges from the period used bullets of .500 to .510". Prior to 1887, the rifles chambered for them were marked "39", a few "38". Understand that this mark addresses only bore diameter, and tells you nothing of the rest of the cartridge (British proof marks of the time didn't). There were a number of .500s of different lengths, including several based on bottlenecked .577 cases. Only a chamber cast can tell you which case this one used.

Pre-1887, the various .577 bore rifles were marked "25".

Note that the marks on both barrels are the same. If this piece were built as a cape gun in, say, .500 BPE/16 gauge, the rifled barrel would be marked "39", and the smooth barrel would be marked "16". Unless there was some strange 39 bore shotshell at the time that I've somehow missed, the proof marks say that this piece was built as a .500 double rifle that has since had it's right barrel converted to a shotgun without re-proof. Unfortunately, such conversion would hammer the value of the piece pretty hard.

Yes, that would be Army & Navy's number. Understand that A & N didn't make it, as they were only a retailer. Most of their guns will also bear the trade maker's serial number as well, which will usually be found on the underside of the barrels (on the key rib, fore-end hanger, lower rib, etc.).

Thanks for all the information. There is a number 1646 on the underside middle of the barrels. That would not be good if it had been bored out to a shotgun round. Is there anyway I could tell if it came from the factory or not. Possibly a misstamp or something? Either way it was well done if afterwords. I will try and post a picture of the chamber are. Thanks again.

Clint,

Sounds like the gun I saw at Camp Eggers here in Kabul on Friday and posted on the Double Rifle, Paradox Guns Forum here. Here's the description with the S/N 1646 on the bottom rib, the clincher for making it the same gun:

"What should appear at the Kabul Cape Eggers gun dealer but a cape gun, marked Army & Navy CSL, back action sidelock, hammers that can be bolted, with a Jones underlever. The gun uses extractors. The forend comes off with one of those old fastenings that slides across. Steel barrels with a dolls head; back sight has one folding leaf marked 50; front sight a bit beaten down. Four Proof marks on the flats: from the breech forward they are: London Provisional proof for barrels; London View, the numbers 39 (NOTE: 400Nitro kindly identified this as the gauge and equal to .500 cal.), and London definitive black powder proof. On the bottom rib some inches from the flats are the numbers 1646. The serial number of the gun, found on the trigger bow is 937, confirmed on the action flats. Steel butt plate. LOP is my estimate about 14 to 14-1/4.

The gauge/caliber are not marked [See above correction.]. The right barrel appears to be 16 gauge, but might be 20. Barrels are clean inside with some dings on the outside, but no dents. The left rifled barrel with wide lands and grooves fits a martini-henry cartridge according to the dealer (577/450). Asking price is $1,800."

Regards, Tim

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This is a picture of the chamber area. I would say that you are probably correct with the chamber being bored out. I have looked it over closely and it appears to be a high quality bore job. With that in mind I wonder if it was done at the factory. Based on the era and thereafter for some time there woulnd't have been many per say gunsmiths that could perform this task thise well is there? I would like your professional opoinion on the value had it not been bored and what you think the value would be in the current state. I'm just looking for a couple ball park figures nothing in stone.

Yes, the right is definitely a re-bore. No, it couldn't have been done at the factory, nor is it at all likely that it was done in England, as such work without re-proof has been illegal there since long before this rifle was made.

From the locations on the gun, 973 is Army & Navy's serial number, and 1646 is the trade maker's serial number. From the number, the gun's features, and it's proof marks, I think this is an 1870's gun. It might be possible to confirm all of the above from the A & N records archived in Glasgow, IF records that early survive (the company was founded in 1871), and if their format is the same as it is in the later ledgers. It's worth a try.

Given the conversion, I think the asking price is rather strong. Were the rifle original and in excellent condition, it would be worth several times that.

Hope this helps.

Clint,

You can convey all this to Farhad if you are interested in the gun and bargain for a best price. I had told him the gun, in its condition, was probably worth about $400. But, I'd get a serious idea of what rifle cartridge and what shotgun gauge and chamber length before getting serious.

As to who bored it out: believe Kabul had an armoury that made all those Martini Henry rifles so abundant here. Fellow who owned the double rifle, might have had some problem with the right barrel and decided to have the armoury bore it out. Hard to say.

Regards,
Tim

Well, found some interesting history on this, formerly a double rifle. Appears a certain P. Lumsden bought it in 1884. He was General Sir P. Lumsden who led the British Afghan Survey Mission the next year that effectively prevented war between Britain and Russia. Below are relevant citings from Army & Navy Records at the U. of Glasgow and from the Hansard (Parliamentary Minutes) on the issue.

Oh, the dealer said someone (likely CLH) had bought it. I left the paper copies of all this with him in case the buyer shows up again. You all will find the exchange in Parliament, notably PM Gladstone's reply a marvellous example political/diplomatic non-speak...

Regards, Tim

QUOTE: According to the Army & Navy records that we hold, gun number 937 was a double express rifle, originally purchased by Sir P. Lumsden in 1884 for £19.10.00. UNQUOTE

QUOTE:
CENTRAL ASIA—THE RUSSO-AFGHAN FRONTIER.
HC Deb 05 March 1885 vol 295 cc126-9 126
§ MR. ONSLOW
asked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he could state to the House the precise determination arrived at by Her Majesty's Government regarding the Afghan frontier; what is the present position of Sir P. Lumsden's Mission, and how long it is proposed to 127 keep him on the borders of Afghanistan, I and for what purpose; and, if he can now state the purport of the visit of the Amir to His Excellency the Viceroy; on what basis any understanding respecting the relative positions of England, Russia, I and Afghanistan on the Afghan frontier is to be framed?
...
MR. GLADSTONE
What I have to say upon these Questions is this—I will first take the Question of my hon. Friend 128 (Mr. Heneage), and I wish to speak explicity to the House. On the part of Her Majesty's Government I am bound to say that, at the present moment, Questions relating to policy or to future contingencies on the subject of the Afghan Frontier cannot, in our judgment, be answered without prejudice to the public interest.UNQUOTE

Very interesting, Tim. Thanks for posting it. The A & N records confirm what was apparent from the proof marks. I had failed to mention that U of G would provide that basic information via email free. Nice service to have.