Mr. Trevallion has an example of this model in sxs and o/u:

I'd trade him my left nutt for it ?

What spectacular guns that firm built!!
To engrave not only their name on them but many others as well!!!

Thanks Mr Hands for posting 'A couple of Old Birmingham
Workhorses"..(As opposed to a Pair of "London Thoroughbreds"). I have given Mr Victor Ventors Senior Editor at SSMag. all the "GEN" on these 2 W.C.Scott 12Bores. He is writing the artical on their Very Intersting History. I have Original Invoices and Correspondence from Scott's To and from the Original Owner. It will be used in the artical.The O.U is the Only One Known to exist. It has a brief mention in Crawford & Whatley's Book on W&C Scotts. The DB is a perfect example of English Gunmaking from the 1920s.We belive they were engraved by the same 'Hand'. CC/DT.

The best of the best.

This is NOT the gun pictured above, but since we are discussing Imperial Premiers.....

This gun was owned by a member here before he let it get away. My understanding is that it was one of a trio. The location of another in this group is know, but the third may have disapeared in the communist take over of the country they were delivered to.

What graceful birds and engraving!!!

I saw this Scott on Gunbroker the seller mentions "Imperial Quality" could it be an early Imperial Gun is it a Premier Gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134255439

Is it a Premier Gun? I think so, but how does he expect to even get an opening bid with those awful pictures? Not that anyone should open the bidding at his start price.

'Imperial Quality'? Nice use of terminology that Scott didn't use for a couple more decades.

Hello Barry,

Could one deduct from the checkering on the sxs that it has been re-stocked?

Very nice guns but don't like that style of checkering on the grip. Not English
in my view.

Thanks for sharing the pictures.

JC

If anyone has any comments or questions -- particularly on the ultra-rare O/U -- please post them and I will attempt to address them in the article, space considerations and all that considered.

Vic, I think at least 6 unfinished Webley and or Scott over/unders were sold to Hoffman Arms in the 1920s and finished up by them. I believe they sold sxs unfinished guns in both boxlock and and sidelock to Hoffman, too. Most of those were engraved by Rudolph Kornbrath. I am not sure of the engravers for Hoffman on the over/unders.

Great tip, Daryl. Thanks. Do you know if these Hoffman guns were boxlock O/Us or some variation? The O/U gun pictured here is a true sidelock, if of a simplified design. Thanks again.

Vic, I cannot remember if they were all the same. They were very "thick actions" . You might get info from M. Hallowell or Mike Petrov as they are familiar with those guns.

Tip much appreciated, Daryl. If anyone else has insights into Scott O/Us it would be great to know. I think I will make that the focus, as they are apparently so rare and under-reported on.

Pattern is typical for Imperial Premiere. They differed from most English guns.

Re; Gunbroker,post.
This Scott gun is I believe, their "Excellentia Triplex" model, produced from 1884-1890. This gun is pictured in the booklet," The History of W.C.Scott Gunmakers."by J.Crawford and P.Whatley see page 15. The same gun is identified in the book,"The Birmingham Gunmakers,"page 115 by Douglas Tate. I have the identical gun except in 12G, and yes it dose have a gold shield in the stock.This feature was not limited to Scott,s "Premiere" series of guns.

JayCee, The Owner had a "WellKnown and very Experienced" Gunsmith"Freshen-Up" the all Original Chequering on both Guns when he did a "Strip and Clean" several years ago, We will put all the details with'Letter-Headed Invoices" in the artical.I had a short conversation with Vic, to-day....Its off the 'Back-Burner"! He has all my Photos of the 2 Guns,( The Naked-Gun photos are really Good')...CC/DT.

Vic have you written for whatever factory records exist to confirm they match the correspondence?

Vic;

Telephone Jack Rowe at 580-233-5042. He has information about the Hoffman/Webley & Scott OU that that would be of interest to you. Let the phone ring as Jack is a bit slow in getting to the telephone these days, due to his parkinson disease.

Regards;
Bushveld

Hugh Lomas Gunmaker, Has a vast knowledge of the Birmingham gun Trade, I call on him for "Meat & Potatoes" Info.He is a Tradesman from the 'Dirty Workbench Brigade'He walked the walk on the Cobbled Streets of "Brum"(Before it Got all Tarted-Up for the "NonGunmaking Business's that have taken over the Old Area)A really Good Book on the Birmingham Gun Trade, by David Williams. It is full of The photos of all the 'Old Cottage Industry Workshops". If you own a Brummie Built Gun or Rifle this little book is a "Must". I was lucky enough to make a visit to the "Area"with English Gunmaker Alf Gritt.(He was the Owner of Chaplins Gunmakers, of Winchester, England) in the year 1960. I was introduced some of the 'Greats' of the Trade, even tho'they knew I was a Purdey Stocker,I was given several "Cups of Tea" and collected some 'Bits and Pieces'for my collection of 'Gun-Stuff'.CC/DT.

Hello David,

Thank you (and NE) for setting me straight. Always learning.
Still don't fancy the checkering though.

JC(AL)

P.S.: Back to watching The Open now. jc

Another book that adds to our knowledge is the recently reprinted volume, "The Birmingham Gun Trade". While much of it deals with the development of the interchangable system of manufacturing it also has a lot of unique information and photos of the small workshops. Highly recommended. You can probably find a copy at Amazon.com.

What 'Open'? You know the TdF is on, don't you?

I have one that is near identical and the buttstock does not look original on this one to me. It is a Premier due to the Gold Shield behind the tang,but overpriced in my opinion and Poor pictures.

Hello Mike,

The Open

JC

P.S.: I am sure Lapin is stuck to the TV watching the TdF, :-) jc

Utah: I will write for the Scott records. I am not sure whether Gallyon's has them (Webley & Scotts) or H&H. Will try to track down. The letters from Scott's that David gave me look definitive, if short.

Bushveld: Jack did mention these guns to me earlier. He will be a good contact, and I think he may know of the man who built of O/U SLE.

Thanks to all for passing tips on.

Vic:
If you have a good current address to write to for Scott records I'd appreciate it if you would post it here. I've tried to contact them without success in the past.
Jim

ItalianSxS: Will do, in this thread. Be patient though. Gallyon's has Webley & Scott, or some of them; I just am not sure about W&C Scott.

Harris and Sheldon Group Limited were the owners of W&C.Scott prior to closure and sale to H&H. I believe that Harris and Sheldon retained the W.&C.Scott business name and records for a number of years after the sale and infact may still have them. In any event, they will know who they were sold to in the first instance. They can be contacted at:
Harris & Sheldon Group Ltd;
North Court,
Packington Park,
Meriden
Via Coventry CV77HF
E mail group@harris-sheldon.co.uk

JC: Female spectator killed in accident with police moto at The Big Loop today. Hincapie in break; virtual yellow shirt on the road. Haven't seen the finish yet; couldn't watch morning feed. "There are other things in this world besides guns," said the penguin when offered an AR. Like fish.

jack

Jack, this is supposed to be a serious forum for research and information regarding all that pertains to guns and shooting. Based on your latest post,you should be ashamed of your self.

Those Merkels do that to folks.

Yeh, I'm filled with self-loathing, Roy. Take a bit of time and review the gossipy asides of the serious birds who roost here and you'll find that my totally irrelevent and digressive comment to a fellow member is very much in the mainstream of what is permitted to members and always has been. If you have consistently abstained from the indulgence of gossip and personality smack-dab in the middle of the collected wisdom (maunderings) of "serious" men, more power to you.

Lapin

Well said. No one complained when I discussed my daughters heart condition 8 1/2 years ago and occasionally I am asked for updates.

It is easy enough to skip over innocuous posts such as these.

BTW - Today's stage at the TdF rocked. Go Astana!

If we could get back to the subject of checkering. The flat top checkering; Is it peculiar to Scott guns? I don't recall seeing it on Grants or other London guns. In fact I don't remember seeing it on many guns from Birmingham or the provinces either. Can someone educate me on its use.
Justin

Roy is correct. There is a Misfire Board a few paragraphs down for non gun and non topic related.

Roy is correct in that Roy has lightly rulered me across the palms and Daryl agrees that it's deserved. Daryl is correct that there is an off-topic area. God bless me, I hope the next time I want to talk about guns, the muscle car crew can take their multi-page memoir de hot rod over there and keep it out of MY thread, but I don't imagine that will happen. Anyway, thanks for the reminder of how things are supposed to work and my small role in preventing them from doing so. Don't get lost in your checkering-gazing!

jack

I think what we Americans see allot of is English guns that have had their checkering worked over by American gunsmiths.

Thanks for answering,Joe. I too thought that,but, I have not seen this checkering on the London guns shown in Holt's catalogues,or on guns posted on web-sites of Brit dealers. The only examples are those Scott guns posted on this site,and my Monte Carlo.
If CC/DT is monitoring this,please save me the dime and tell us what's what.

Not all Brit guns were flat top, my 1895 Alex Henry has all of its original finish and is pointed up, My Holland from 1924 is flat top. Both original condition and both best quality guns, just different approaches from each house. I do agree that the vast majority of British guns that American smiths refinish end up with pointed up checkering, no matter how they started out.
Steve

My Charles Lancaster started life in 1874 with flat top checkering.

Hey you naughty Lapin,

Does Lance still have a chance at an eighth or will Contador get it?

Back to topic: what I don't like about the checkering is the fleur-de-lis design.
De gustibus... you know how it goes.

JC

Vic, Mike Smart may well have some useful knowledge about the O/U,he was the finishing foreman at the end of W C Scotts. If he didn't finish it he probably knows who did etc., Worth a call to Richard Tandy or would you like me to do it?

I hope that was tongue in cheek. An occasional of topic post is no big deal. And I tell you what, if I was in the same position now as I was 8 1/2 years ago, I would post about my daughter in this part of the board instead of the ignored by most 'Misfire'.

If you all have become this anal you may want to take a break from your hobby as it has become way to serious.

As to checkering, I guess I hadn't been very clear. The 'smith I quoted was pointing out that flat top checkering was a price point issue, not the "Rule" for all British guns.

I find it humorous that folks seem to think there is ONLY ONE WAY something can be done to be original on British gun.

PS I think Contador wins his second w/ Armstrong in 2nd or 3rd

A price point issue? I'm more confused,or rather feel more ignorant. If it cost more for the flat top checkering,then we would see it more on the pricier guns but we don't. We just see it occasionally. So, it was a form of checkering that some sports preferred over the pointed checkering and Scott had a fondness for since we see it from the Monte Carlo up to the Premiers.
And yet I don't recall reading about the different methods in books of the vintage era,and beyond. I can't remember it in Greener,Walsh,or Burrard. So if someone can steer me to some material I would appreciate it.
There are many ways that things are done and often they are all the correct way. Don't interperet interest in one method as singlemindedness. Justin

Speaking for myself now as I am not going to keep involving friends who are 'smiths in this thread.

Flat top checkering was, I am sure a preference of some buyers and some sellers.

It seems to ME that flat top checkering would be more forgiving of errors in the original making and more tolerant to damage during its life.

I'm no expert by any means but having done a little checkering I would have to disagree with you...I would think the flat top style was less forgiving when executing.

Ps...I wouldn't put much stock in what an American gunsmith said about why the English did anything.

Roy:

Thanks for the contact info, Roy

Salopian: I can get Richard, did not know Mike worked for Scott's, if you know any other old hands from Scotts please p.m. me. Thanks.

Read for comprehension. In my last post I said it was MY opinion.

I still think it is silly to say that flat top checkering is the only proper style for British guns. There are original examples of both styles extant.

Some were surprised that the Imperial's actually had original 'Fleur de lis' style checkering.

Vic,

Be aware that the PM system on this site does not work at all for many people.

Oh Dear,.....This Chequering subject is going on & on again & again! Monte Kennedy's Checkering & Carving of gunstocks has his explanation of "English Flat-Top Checkering" (Pictured is a c 1930s Holland & Holland. When I was working as a Vocational Training Instructor c1980-1986 for the Veterans Admin.With both WW2 & Viet-Nam Era Disabled Veterans, part of my Stockmaking & Chequering program was Making Chequering Tools.They were made the "Olde English" way, Cutting 2 lines aprox .020", the inside of the tool was 'squared out'(ie Flat-top of the line of wood that was left standing, which was the line I counted for the "Lines per Inch" If I can Have "Older Doc" post a couple of My 'Jobs',It might be of Interest. CC/DT

Getting back to checkering. I spoke to David Trevallian about this business of flat top checkering. He told me that he has a checkering tool from Purdeys,handed down through the ages that cut the two lines on either side of the checker. The tool was made from the metal spines used in umbrella tops,and was purchased from umbrella makers,then cut,bent,and sharpened for use. Hopefully David will get help and post some pictures he has on hand to illustrate all we've been chatting about.
It seems that in all this discussion I didn't realise that flat top checkering could be done as fine as diamond and it made me think that I have not been looking at guns close enough and paying enough attention to the different techniques.
Justin

justin,

David posted just before you.

I watched Paul Hodgins use a similar tool one time when I visited his shop.

Yeah,a day late and a dollar short justin

CC what are your thoughts on the difficulty of executing each style ?

Gallyon's has replied that the serial # sequence this gun (O/U SLE) belongs to is missing. That confirms a provenance letter from Scott's circa 1950 that David T has provided that mentions these records were lost in the war. Am checking with other sources but it appears factory records are gone for this gun, and quite a number of mid-'20s W&C Scott-badged guns as well.

Roy H: my e-mails to you are bouncing back. We may have to do it the old-fashioned way. If there is a Western Union station nearby I will send telegraph. Stop. Watch for In'juns.